Today on our show, we bring you a story by Sari Botton. Sari’s story is a great example of how to tell a story that encompasses your whole life. It is also a great example of how to end a story while you are still living with a situation.

Sari has been featured before on WCR. Check out Episode 80. You Have Permission to Write or Not Write. Sari Botton (sounds like Larry Cotton) is the author of the memoir in essays, And You May Find Yourself…Confessions of a Late-Blooming Gen-X Weirdo. A different version of the story you’re about to hear appears in that book. Sari publishes Oldster Magazine, Memoir Monday, and Adventures in Journalism.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marnino Toussaint.

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There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

0:00:19 - Speaker 2

I'm Allison Langer.

0:00:21 - Speaker 3

I'm Andrea Askowitz and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories here. We produce this podcast, which is Equal Parts Heart and Art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. You know I don't know if we say this and have been saying this for like eight years I really, really, really feel this is so true The craft of writing in the heart, yeah, We have found the craft yeah.

Like I am so committed to the heart and art of writing, just wanted to say that, no matter what's going on in our lives, writing class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shit. There's no place in the world like writing class, and we want to bring you in.

0:01:12 - Speaker 2

Today on our show we bring you a story by Sari Botton. Sari's been featured before on Writing Class Radio, so check out Episode 80. You have permission to write or not write. That's really good. Sari Botton sounds like Larry Cotton.

0:01:32 - Speaker 3

She says that all the time because it's hard to know how to say her name, because her name is S-A-R-I.

0:01:36 - Speaker 2

But we're saying it, they're not reading it. I know I don't know, but I just wanted it there. It's funny to me. I don't think I can say that with a straight face. You did it. Done. Sari Botton, which sounds like Larry Cotton if you're reading it, is the author of the memoir and essays called and you may find yourself dot dot, dot. Confessions of a Late Blooming Gen X Weirdo. A different version of the story you're about to hear appears in that book. Sari publishes Old Star Magazine, Memoir Monday and Adventures in Journalism. She does a shit ton, yeah, and the links to all those will be in our show notes.

0:02:13 - Speaker 3

So check them out and all of those Old Star Magazine awesome Memoir Monday. It's a curated weekly about what's great out there on the internet and Adventures in Journalism is just like her life stuff. Great, great stuff.

0:02:25 - Speaker 2

This story that we're going to share with you today is a great example of how to tell a story that encompasses your whole life And that ain't easy. Nope. Back with Sari's story after the break.

0:02:38 - Speaker 3

Hey writers, If you're looking for a writing community and you want to go beyond the first draft Writing Class, Radio has two opportunities for a second draft class. We meet Monday Eastern from 12 to 1 and Thursday nights from 8 to 9 Eastern.

0:03:00 - Speaker 2

We also offer a final draft class and that meets every Saturday from 10 to 12.30. The semesters are 10 weeks. To find out more about that.

0:03:11 - Speaker 3

Go to writingclassradio.com and click on the class description Classes tab.

0:03:19 - Speaker 2

Hey, this is Allison, host of Writing Class Radio. I know there are many of you out there who don't have access to a writing group or someone to look over your essay or manuscript. If that's the case, I can help. I'm available to help you whip your essay into shape. I'll read through your draft, offer suggestions, line edits and I'll spend time with you brainstorming for the best possible ending. Be prepared to answer the question what is this story about? Because if you don't know, nobody knows. You know. Sometimes it takes more than a bath or a long walk to figure this out. It takes a brutal editor who will tell you what works, what needs more explaining and what needs to go. For more information, visit writingclassradiocom. Then email Allison at writingclassradio.com, use the code WCR and your first 15 minutes is free.

0:04:15 - Speaker 3

We're back. This is Andrea Ascoitz and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Sari Botton reading her story The Weight a Manifesto.

0:04:35 - Speaker 4

Have you been working out? an annoying acquaintance asked after a head-to-toe glance Because you look and hear. She paused Better. The problem was I had been working out, I had lost weight and I hated everything about that. Like just about every woman in America, plus plenty of men and people across the gender spectrum, I've got issues with body image, weight, food and exercise. In my teens and twenties I struggled on and off with anorexia and it warped my relationship to my body and its appetite. When I starved myself I thought it was just another way. I was weird. Now I know our culture has a massive collective eating disorder. The adults around me had been taught to hate their bodies and through constant dieting, worrying aloud about calories, the messages came through loud and clear. Even though I've worked through a lot of that over the past few decades, some of the sickness remains. Lifelong body dysmorphia makes me an unreliable narrator about the state of my figure, but to the best of my understanding, I am not, nor have I ever been, overweight.

I'm petite, a hair under 5 feet, a size 4 or 6, depending on the brand, and curvy, soft-bodied with a full bosom 34D. I was in kindergarten the first time I thought I was fat. My body size and shape were well within a healthy range, according to my doctors, and photographs bear this out, but I was convinced I was fat. I vividly recall my mom showing me professional photos of me. I wore a red cotton summer outfit with a white floral pattern. My cheeks and arms seemed too full and I begged my mom not to show the pictures to anyone else. I look at those photos now and I can't see what I saw then. I had no extra padding. A year later, at 6, I cried about moving up to a bigger underwear size. My parents and grandparents were always trying to fit into smaller sizes and now I was moving in the wrong direction. Our cupboards were filled with tab and sweet and low The freezer with ice milk. I was surrounded by grown-up women who made excuses if they allowed themselves a cookie or a pad of butter on a baked potato. At 7, an adult commented on my ample butt, the part of my body I have struggled to make peace with ever since. Shortly after that, when I got a stomach virus, I experienced a weird sense of empowerment from my ability to go without eating. I was vomiting, but I saw the whole ordeal as a stroke of luck. Maybe if I stopped eating for long enough, I could lose my big butt.

In fourth grade my friends and I began comparing our bodies. I had one friend, lucy, with juvenile diabetes, who went through periods where she was rail thin. Lucy and other girls bragged about their doctors declaring them underweight. The girls reported this like it was an unfortunate situation beyond their control. Who always me underweight again. I just can't keep the meat on my bones. At 14, my body started to develop and suddenly my clothes fit tighter. I was still very much not fat, but I was a few pounds heavier. And I wasn't the only one who noticed You don't eat the cakes and the candies, do you? My step-grandma asked. We were at a family gathering and I desperately wanted something sweet, but I couldn't stand the way my body was massing out, as I'd heard a friend's mother refer to the phenomenon.

In the middle of tenth grade, in the winter of 1981, when I was 15, I decided that I needed to take some action to control this body. First I did the stewardess diet. Breakfast was black coffee something I didn't drink yet and a half grapefruit. Lunch and dinner were different kinds of meat with plain undressed vegetables. After four days of that boring regimen, I didn't feel nearly thin enough.

I went to the library and there, instead of diet books, I was drawn to a young adult novel called The Best Little Girl in the World by Stephen Levin Kron. It was the story of a teen girl who develops anorexia and bulimia. Clearly it was meant to caution young readers against starving themselves, but for me it became a blueprint. I learned all the tricks from Francesca, the main character how to move food around on your plate, how to fool tired parents, how to leave evidence of having eaten breakfast without taking a bite, put cereal crumbs in a bowl and leave it in the sink. The book destroyed my relationship to food and my body forever. I'd skip lunch and walk the school grounds to burn fat. At dinner, I would put a small amount of meat into a large portion of salad, but only eat the vegetables, and at the end of the meal quickly toss the meat into the garbage.

Initially I filled up with water tab, diluted orange juice and tea, and it helped distract me from my hunger. Each time I peed, I imagined fat pouring out of me. A couple of days in, I felt the equivalent of a runner's high from not eating. It was exhilarating to feel so in control to feel empty and light. I had so much energy. I expended it in the evenings, dancing vigorously to the more upbeat songs on Springsteen's The River album. I say dancing but it looked more like awkward aerobics kicking and punching the air, twisting and turning with the objective of working all the fat off of all my parts every evening a ritual.

In a short time I had gotten myself down to 90 pounds from 112. A healthy weight was more like 120. I was very thin. My parents became alarmed. I became alarmed because, even though I knew definitively that I was thinner than was considered healthy, I only wanted to keep losing weight. I confessed to my parents that I'd been starving myself and that I wanted help. They found a therapist who specialized in childhood eating disorders and I started going once a week. My therapist, Evelyn, was a nice woman about my mother's age, in her early 40s. The problem was, Evelyn was skinny. What if she had chosen eating disorders as her specialty because she had one? Conversely, if she was bony by nature, how could she possibly understand what it meant to be afraid to gain weight? She had me keep a running list of everything I ate, which put me at odds with myself The part of me interested in getting well wanted to let this exercise help me.

The part of me interested in staying sick used it to obsess and fret over everything I put in my mouth. I felt split about wanting to get better. I didn't want to die like some of the anorexic kids I'd been told about, but I also didn't want to weigh any more than I currently did. I wanted to weigh even less. In 11th grade I got my first real boyfriend, jason. It seemed only once I'd gotten super thin, my jaw and cheekbones becoming more prominent, that he and other boys noticed me.

In college my metabolism slowed, apparently a homeostasis response to starving. I put on weight while consuming under 1,000 calories per day. So I bought a rusty exercise bike at a yard sale and rode it in my dorm room, sometimes two or three times daily. I didn't get my first full period until 18, and it was a doozy. I was diagnosed with severe endometriosis, which led to hormone treatments that made me develop acne and gain weight. I hated myself, but there was something useful about having a whole other condition to deal with, which made it impossible for me to be impossibly thin. Now I had no choice but to let go at least somewhat, of the need to be super skinny. It was the beginning of becoming less vigilant about my weight, which was a relief. I wasn't all better by any stretch, but endometriosis put me on a path toward a little better, and then a little bit better than that, then a slip, followed by a bit better than before, then a slip, and so on, mostly moving me in a healthy direction.

At 33, I unwittingly adopted a slightly different flavor of eating disorder, one disguised to look like a smart approach to eating orthorexia, which conflates restriction of certain foods with being healthy. A doctor put me on a three-month elimination diet to try and figure out what foods might be making me sick. I eliminated sugar, dairy meat, gluten, alcohol and vinegar, which seemed to help me regulate my very irregular period. Best read. Worst of all, it made me feel in control and healthy. So I just stayed on the diet for years. In my late 40s and early 50s. Injuries I incurred while jogging, plus frequent respiratory illnesses, made it difficult to exercise vigorously, which forced me to switch to less punishing activities and also to accept my body a little bit fuller and rounder Still.

Every now and then I'll go hours fighting to ignore the siren song of the contents of the refrigerator. Most mornings at 11:30, I felt hungry, but wouldn’t allow myself to eat. No lunch until the clock strikes noon, no 12:30. I want to revolt against this baseless decree, but the unreasonable despot I'd be rebelling against is me.

I have a lot of food rules. I'm allowed one square of chocolate per day, or one small gluten-free cookie, likely one that I baked or a tablespoon of ice cream to keep me from feeling too dessert deprived. No full desserts more than once a week, preferably not more than once a month. No per quarter. If I have a carb-heavy lunch, I can't also have a carb-heavy dinner. I keep these rules in my head and know them by rote.

A certified nutrition coach once taught me to ask myself anytime I think I'm hungry. Might I be angry, lonely or tired? Instead, she gave me an acronym by which to remember this line of questioning H-A-L-T halt. This was supposed to be wellness, but it made me doubt my own hunger. Sometimes I think a teaspoon of peanut butter will hold me over, but that only buys me 15 minutes of relief. 20 tops. This is a problem that could easily be solved with a bigger breakfast, but the unreasonable despot in my brain lets me have only small rations of fruit, yogurt and gluten-free muesli for the first meal of the day Another ridiculous rule I'm afraid to break.

I wish now that I could unremember halt along with everything I was ever taught about calories, good food, bad carbs, weight watchers' points and all the other nonsense that runs through my mind. Don't get me wrong I know there are legitimate concerns regarding nutrition and exercise and probably legitimately healthy ways of approaching both, but my history renders me incapable of separating healthy approaches out from harmful ones or from turning the healthy approaches into modes of harm. I wish I could finally permanently let it all go. At 57, I've come a long way and maybe incrementally, over time, the rest will fade from my consciousness. In the meantime, the best thing I can do is treat myself with as much gentleness and kindness as possible, in whatever mode I find myself. Obsessed with my weight and appearance will relax about it, just as necessary as having compassion for everyone else those who infected me with the sickness, the people who insulted me directly or through backhanded compliments. Every one of them was taught to hate their bodies.

0:17:07 - Speaker 3

I am so impressed with this story for a few reasons. The first, I think, is that this narrator admits at the top of the story or pretty early on, and I love how she does it. She says that she has dysmorphia, which makes her an unreliable narrator about this true state of her body, but she shows us what her body looks like in terms of. She gives us her stats really. She tells us her weight and her height and she says that she's not fat. And she continues to tell a whole story about her own issues with food. And I know from my own experience writing a story about my issues with food. If you present as someone who isn't fat, the internet does not like you. But, to Sari's credit, I really like her. I feel like she's a very, very reliable narrator because she tells us she's not. And what I mean by reliable narrator in the terms of writing is that she's giving us her vulnerability, she's telling us how vulnerable she is, and so I trust her.

But it is a very difficult thing to do when you don't present or you don't look fat to the rest of the world, and I wonder about that, like I mean, we can talk about the harshness that I got remember the story I wrote about eating baklava.

Every year, tom DeMarcchi sends me baklava you too, thanks, tom, because I eat so much, I know, I love it so much and I eat so much baklava every time I get it. And it's not just baklava, but in that moment, that one time, it set me off and it made me write the story about being afraid, always being afraid of gaining weight And for so many of the reasons that this narrator felt fear, the comments that she got throughout her whole life. I so understand this narrator. So that's the first reason why I'm so impressed with her. And the other reason is I thought that she did a really, really, really good job, kind of like showing us her entire life through food in a way that I thought was very compelling And gets to the end and really there is no end. And so I thought that's also like we talk a lot about endings And in this case the narrator she admits that she has come a shit ton long way, but she's not healed, she's not cured. I mean, and is anyone ever cured?

0:19:48 - Speaker 2

I mean, she's talking about a subject that many, many people struggle with. I related to so much. Yes, 100%, and just hearing a story where you think, okay, i'm not alone is really important. I think so.

0:20:04 - Speaker 3

Yeah, I want to go through it and note some of the moments that really struck me. She says our culture has a massive eating disorder. She says that sort of at the top of the story and that's kind of higher register. But I think it is so true. She told it to us right after she talked about how everyone compliments her and how hard it was complimenting her when she lost weight. She thought it was just like her issue, but no, it's a massive cultural problem.

0:20:37 - Speaker 2

Well, to bring up a story that you got published in CNN, it's similar to people saying to each other at parties oh my God, you look so young or you look so good, even though they've aged.

0:20:49 - Speaker 3

We have a massive eating disorder in our culture and a massive ageism problem in our culture Massive. Then she gives us such good evidence for her lifelong struggle. In kindergarten she thought she was fat. She shows us the picture of herself And now when she looks back on that picture, she's like what, what did I see? And then at six years old, she cries because she wanted to not be going up in size. That part I thought was so sweet, it was about underwear. But compared to her grandparents and everybody around her, she thought she was moving in the wrong direction And I felt like she gave us this kid perspective in a way that I was like, yeah, I understand, because it was such a kid thinking.

I love that part. Yeah, really good. And then the details of what was in a refrigerator tab, ice milk. We had tab and ice milk. Maybe that's another reason why I particularly really like this story, because so many of the specifics resonated with me, which is like just a this isn't a side, but like sometimes when you're trying to get your story published in a publication, you are you that I'm talking about you, the listener, if you're trying to get your story published, or me as a writer, when I'm trying to get my story published. If an editor is like charmed by something, like the details that come out, then you just have an added advantage. It's subjective, that's my point, but I really love that. And then the as she's getting older, kids are like bragging about being underweight. I could so see that too. Like the. Oh, i just can't keep the weight on my bones.

0:22:34 - Speaker 2

I still say that When I was going through cancer, i'm like I don't know. I'm near eating macadamia nuts, I just can't gain weight And everyone else is like it's true, it couldn't be mean.

0:22:43 - Speaker 3

But yeah, you did do that, Exactly, yeah. And then she talked about and this is what's happening to me right now. At 14, sarah was like suddenly her clothes fit tighter. I'm like at 55. Suddenly my clothes are fitting tighter.

0:23:00 - Speaker 2

They shrink in the closet. Everyone knows that.

0:23:03 - Speaker 3

Oh, in the closet. Yeah, they're shrinking it. Yeah, exact same clothes that I wear every single day because I only have one uniform. Suddenly they're shrinking in the closet. I don't get it. The language massing out I loved her voice there. When she goes to the library and finds this part was so harrowing to me And this is like scary, scary, and maybe this is why she called her story Wait, a Manifesto. In a way she's saying it's a policy declaration or something, because this part said it all. She finds this book called The Best Little Girl in the World, which is supposed to be a cautionary tale about eating, but instead for her it's a blueprint. This book teaches her how to become anorexic. That is so scary. When I first read her story and then when I just heard it now it's like that part, god that is so scary.

0:24:04 - Speaker 2

When I was in college, my mom was doing research on bulimia and anorexia And I was like, oh, that sounds like a good way to lose weight. That's when I started throwing up a little. Yeah, it sucks. Teenagers are just idiots.

0:24:21 - Speaker 3

I mean, i mean, were you reading what your mom was writing? Probably not, she was just telling you.

0:24:26 - Speaker 2

She was telling me And that she would just be like complaining about these other girls and the parents maybe couldn't control them, And I was like, really Well, neither can you.

0:24:36 - Speaker 3

Okay so would your mom say, like they can't even control when their girls are walking to the bathroom and putting their fingers down their throat. And then you were like, oh, that's a great idea. Is that what happened?

0:24:46 - Speaker 2

I mean, I don't remember, but she would be like can you believe this? This is what people do, Don't they care that they're gonna like wrot out their teeth And I'm like skinny teeth. I don't know, Maybe I'll be skinny until I have to get fake teeth. I don't know. Oh Jesus, We're stupid. We're in the moment. We just want to look cute.

0:25:05 - Speaker 3

It's so scary, it's so, so scary The kind of information that kids can get and then how they use it. Ooh, anyway, she continues to take us through her life. She had to keep a list of what she ate, and of course, that sounds like a good idea, maybe, but then it totally fueled her obsession. What she did really well, also in this piece, is and this is very hard to do in writing she held the conflict, so on the one hand, she knew she was at this point, she knew that she was sick, and on the other hand, she wanted to stay sick, and I thought that she did a really good job of showing us both those tensions.

0:25:48 - Speaker 2

I always wonder what's going on in somebody else's world, that they need to stay in control of something. Because I feel it. I really related to that, because she felt really in control when she could lose weight. And I try to think back now where didn't I feel in control? And I feel like teenagers as a whole with the changes going to school, trying to keep up your grades, trying to please your parents, trying to find a good college, then trying to look beautiful online constantly.

Yeah, I mean, we didn't have that, thank God, when we were growing up. That would have just been one more layer, but you do feel totally out of control, and this one thing allowed me to feel in control, and so maybe there's more to it. I mean, what we're hearing now is this, and it's written in a way that we all can relate to, or I can relate to. And it gets my mind wondering I get what you're asking.

0:26:43 - Speaker 3

Yeah, you're asking what's the underlying control?

0:26:48 - Speaker 2

And maybe there was nothing.

0:26:50 - Speaker 3

Or maybe it was just about being a girl at that age Exactly. What about this moment where the narrator talks about orthorexia, that's when she eliminated certain things from her diet in quotes for health? Again, that's an obsession.

0:27:14 - Speaker 2

You're talking to someone who. I see the look on your face. Are you going to chime in? I will chime in Chime. So yeah, I don't eat gluten, I don't eat dairy, I don't eat blah, blah, blah. There's a whole long list of shit. Initially it was because I was battling lots of digestion issues right before I was diagnosed with cancer. And then, once I had cancer, I wanted to make sure that I stayed as healthy as possible no toxins, and it's crazy. It's crazy making for sure. And so now there's always a fear of the cancer coming back. But also, I know, if I can control what I eat and call it health reasons, then it's just easier for me to stay thin.

0:27:59 - Speaker 3

Is it about controlling thinness, or is it about controlling cancer? So for you it's probably both, yeah it's both, so I so get it.

0:28:06 - Speaker 2

But what you're asking is if there was no cancer, would I still be doing this? Probably? Yeah, I can confess. Yes, I wasn't asking that I'm crazy.

0:28:14 - Speaker 3

I wasn't asking that, but thank you for telling the truth. You're a reliable narrator. You know what I'm doing to beat back menopause. I'm exercising so much. I mean, vicky was like Vicky, my wife She's like I think you're becoming obsessed with exercise, like becoming, yeah, more than ever, because I would like go to the pool. We were on a four day vacation and I went to the pool and did like 20 laps of the longest pool I've ever seen, and then then we would go hiking And then sometimes I would want to go back to the pool Like I was nuts on that trip. So I'm having a little bit of a problem right now and it scares me. I mean, one, i don't want to get old, but two, I don't want to be obsessed with exercise. And this narrator also was obsessed with exercise with her rust, the old bike and anyway, she brought me in so many times and I so understood the food rules that she still has now. I want to thank her for admitting that.

0:29:18 - Speaker 2

I know, because I can't wait till we're done so I can get up and get me two gluten free cookies You're allowed to. Sometimes I have three.

0:29:26 - Speaker 3

Really Yeah, proud of you. Because I have food rules too, but it's like one full dessert a day, not one tablespoon. Well, that's why I have to exercise Exactly. See, we're all so fucking nuts.

0:29:41 - Speaker 2

Oh God. Well, I don't think we're going to solve the world's problems, but the reason why this story is so powerful is because there is a problem. It's acceptable. This is an acceptable problem.

0:29:54 - Speaker 3

Maybe because we all share it, all the especially American white women. Why do you have to throw race in? Because I think that other races and other cultures have a different view of body image. I think that you're allowed to be thicker in the black community, for instance, and also in the Latin community. Yeah, oh, I love this moment too, where she said she would get a little better, a little better, slip a little better. And so we know that she's not done with this issue, but I do still think that this story is very, very satisfying. At the end, she actually talks about how so many of us, including the people who insulted her, were also insulted and also have to live in this fat, obsessed culture.

0:30:43 - Speaker 2

I think that the ending, like when people ask a lot like well, how do I end this if I'm still going through it And this is a great example of that She basically just takes us through, like where she is now, and shows us an anecdote or a scene or something that shows us she is still dealing with it and this is how.

0:31:01 - Speaker 3

Thank you, sarah Botten, for sharing your story And thank you for listening. If you love the essay you just heard, you can read more of Sarah Botten in her beautiful memoir and essays, which means it's a memoir put together by a series of essays. Her memoir and essays is called, and You May Find Yourself Confessions of a Late Blooming Gen X Weirdo Anywhere you buy books. We vote that you get it at your local indie. Her favorite is Books and Books.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by me, andrea Asquitz, and me, allison Langer. Audio production by Matt Cundle, evan Serminsky and Aiden Glassy at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marnino Toussaint. There's more Writing Class on our website, writingclassradiocom, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon.

If you want to write with us every week and who doesn't? You can join our first draft weekly writers groups. We have two options to choose from. There's Tuesday's, 12 to 1 Eastern Time with Allison, and we have a new first draft weekly writers group, thursday's, 8 to 9 PM Eastern with Eduardo Wink. So write to a prompt and share what you wrote. It's so much fun. Also, if you're a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist group that needs healing. Someone who wants to help your team write their story, or write their story better. Check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradiocom. Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and, most importantly, the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

0:33:29 - Speaker 2

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

0:33:38 - Speaker 1

To the bag. We gon' get that shining like I was a ghetto bird. I don't wanna leave the ghetto birds, but so that I need ya Just in.

0:33:50 - Speaker 2

Distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

0:33:54 - Speaker 5

Women of Ill Repute. That's our podcast And we think it's a compliment, because it is a compliment. Who wants to be boring and follow other people's rules? So we listen to others and there's lots of podcasts for comedians. They sound like journalists these days, and now on our podcast we've got a journalist and a comedian, me, wendy Mesley, and my pal, maureen Holloway. You can guess who's the comedian. We team up for smart talk with some brave women, or maybe it's brave talk with smart women. Anyway, women of Ill Repute You decide.

It's a comedy show or journalism. So you can check us out on Apple Podcasts, google Podcasts, spotify or at womenofillreputecom.