Show Notes Episode 167: Even Though I'm Judging You, Don't Judge Me for Being a Chopper Mom

Today on our show, we’re talking about writing with personality and being vulnerable. And when we say vulnerable, we mean including the hard things, good and bad, about ourselves. You’ll hear a story by Dr. Jane Marks, who is a conservation ecologist and professor of Aquatic Ecology at Northern Arizona University (NAU).

The show was on September 28, 2023. Those stories, told live and filled with science and vulnerability, will be aired on this podcast in 2024.

Jane’s story, called Sometimes Families Need a Helicopter Mom is about regret. In her essay, Jane was able to tell us so many things about her life, very serious, high-stakes things, while guiding the reader past the bombs and back into what this story is about.

For more Jane, check out Episode 149: The More Things Change, the More Brussels Sprouts Stay the Same. You will never look at Brussels sprouts the same again and you will laugh your ass off. 

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. You can also sign up for Second Draft, which meets Thursdays 12-1 ET. This group is for writers looking for feedback on a more polished draft for publication. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

Transcript

Allison Langer  0:00  
I'm Alison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz (Speaker 1)  0:16  
I'm Andrea Askowitz and this is writing class radio, you'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together we produce this podcast which is equal parts heart and art. By heart we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing, no matter what's going on in our lives, writing classes where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shit.

There's no place in the world like writing class, and we want to bring you in. Today on our show. We're talking about stakes and writing with personality. Dr. Jane marks is a conservation ecologist and professor of aquatic ecology at Northern Arizona University. Jane has been taking classes with writing class radio for like, I don't know, three years now. And we just got back from NAU where we did a live show September 28 2023, where we first trained Jane Marx and Bruce Hungate students, their Ph. D. students how to personalize our science stories. And then we did a live show and those essays kicked ass and we're gonna bring them to you in 2024.

Allison Langer  1:29  
So keep listening. Back with Jane story after the break. We're back. This is Alison Langer and you're listening to writing class radio Up next is Jane Marks reading her story. Sometimes families need a helicopter mom.

Jane  1:53  
Nona when I was nine and had just started gymnastics, my husband Bruce and I were watching her practice with six other moms crammed in a small room. We could see the expansive gym with stations for balance beams parallel bars and trampolines. An instructor was helping no no with a backflip, but she wasn't ready. No, no look scared. One woman said Nona can't compete at regionals. Without backflips. She told us her daughter did backflips at age four when she also learned to read she asked me if known it does well in school. So So I said, No, no read The Iliad in first grade in English, but didn't master the Latin version until second. The room went silent until Bruce said, Don't you mean Greek? When the same moms opened their own gymnastic studio with better equipment and Olympic train coaches. I judge them as helicopter parents overly focused on their kids. I was working full time as a biology professor. I didn't have time to micromanage my kids activities. The next year I had breast cancer a stage three mastectomy chemo radiation kind of cancer, a 50% chance of reoccurrence cancer, a flip a coin and I live or die cancer. That same year our son Dylan 13, had a seizure and was diagnosed with epilepsy. As I battled cancer, Dylan seizures began occurring every few months despite anti seizure medication. He needed brain surgery. Friends helped us care for Nona. Erica took her to gymnastics, Beth drove her to middle school, Mindy made cookies. My friend saw no no more than I did. No one had dumped her best friend and tried but failed to join the popular girls. She quit gymnastics and started theater. When we were in the hospital with Dylan Nona stayed with my sister on the phone Nona was complaining about her friend troubles. I interrupt it. I can't deal with this. Now. I need you to be strong. I heard known as voice catching her throat and I felt like the worst mom. Fight five years later, Dylan and I were healthy. I thought we'd made it through the hard part. One night Nona was sitting on my bed. I'll miss Dylan when he goes to Berkeley. But she said but what I asked. I want She said not finishing her thought. More attention. I asked and hugged her. She smelled good. You miss so much. She said. I'm sorry. I said you were a trooper. Can I tell you something? She asked. Don't freak out. I felt afraid. I tried cutting. When I asked around Dillon surgery. I remember that phone call how I cut her off. I thought it was normal teenage angst Are you cutting now? I asked. No, she said. She told me she was still lonely at school but like the kids in the community theater company. I know you aren't a theatre person, she said, but maybe you could come to rehearsals. Anyway. My daughter wanted me involved so I volunteered. in Flagstaff, the only musical theatre company was run by evangelical Christians who constantly yelled at the kids. They only performed Disney. When Noah was 15. She was Babette, a flirty French maid and Beauty and the Beast. She wasn't allowed to sit on Lumieres lap because it was too slow it even Disney needed to be censored. I had misgivings. But no, no was making friends. The next year no an audition for Little Mermaid. She didn't get a lead. No nos audition was great. But the leads were going to kids who tend to the same churches as the directors. When the producer wouldn't take my call. I wrote a three page manifesto outlining the injustices, demanding resignations. I sent it to the producers and CC all the theater parents. My complaints set off a rush of rants and resignations. In retrospect, my manifesto was excessive. We weren't fighting a toxic waste dump. But I had to fight for my kid. Flagstaff needed a better theater experience for teens. After meeting with local theater experts and parents I started a new theater company called Flagstaff arts, music and education, fame. I was back to working full time and knew it would be a serious time commitment. But this was my chance to do something for Nona. Dozens of people volunteered their time and talents. We had fair auditions, and the kids voted on the shows they'd perform. Every week known and her friends rehearsed in our house, I made spaghetti or ordered pizzas. Our house was no longer a sick house. Known to help me set up auditions and coordinate rehearsals in the car we listened to soundtracks and sang as we posted the town advertising shows known to position the poster I use the staple gun. We stopped for frozen yogurt on the west side and cinnamon rolls downtown. What I lacked in experience I made up with Dr. I was a mom making up for lost time.

Toward Nona’s senior year the kids wanted to perform Heather's an edgy musical about teen bullying school violence and suicide. The adults were hesitant. No no organize a lobbying session that was far more diplomatic than my manifesto. The kids told us why they wanted Heather's one spoke about the day the police came to their school because the student was on the roof with a gun. Another talked about a friend who committed suicide known as said adults don't want to hear it. But this is our life. Can't we use theater to talk about stuff instead of pushing it under the rug. I thought back to the phone call when I was dismissive about known as complaints. This time I listened. The students put on Heather's Nona wanted to be Veronica the nice girl with the best solos. But she was cast as this queen bee Heather Chandler Nothing makes a mom prouder than watching her daughter face a packed audience and say, fuck me gently with a chainsaw. Recently known a left for college where she's majoring in environmental science. Sitting on the board of the theatre group and reading the Elliott have handed fame off to the next generation of parents. my tenure as helicopter mom is over. But it was worth the effort. I realized I judge the gymnastics moms too harshly. Like me. They just wanted to show their kids how much they love them

Allison Langer  9:14  
I love any essay that says fuck. Oh my God, I love Jane so much. I just And because we know Jane so well. I can completely see her like not taking any shit and saying fuck this. I'm going to start my own thing. Like let's get going. And I just really love the whole theme. Because you and I also are working moms. I mean, obviously, we don't we're not as high powered as Jane. But we miss things. I mean, I still missed a lot of stuff. I either you know being away or I don't know there's there's there's times and so when I can do something sometimes I overdo it, you know? What do you mean? What do you overdo? Just like when I show up for my kid some times I overdo it, like, let's get, um, you know, like I go into full combat mode,

Speaker 1  10:04  
like you're wearing full regalia of the of the school, like hats, wet shirt, that's, you know,

Allison Langer  10:11  
just the opposite, like, I'm on my kids side if they're opposing a teacher or the school or like, I'm like, Alright, let's get them. Like I believe in them and I try to step back, but I just really want to support my kid and however that kid needs to be supported at the time and sometimes I don't, you know, stand back and think about like, what's going on? And I kind of got that a little bit in here that she was she she was making up for lost time. She even says it. The I was just a mom making up for lost time. So to me, that's what this is about. You know, I just thought this mom yeah, she over she's overdoing it. She's being that helicopter, as our producer, Matt says chopper mom, because he's Canadian. And they say funny things like that. But yeah, we show up at chopper mom, it is. Yeah. And we look like to the like to the coach or to the teacher that we're overdoing it. But there's so much behind it. Sometimes you're saying

Speaker 1  11:12  
that you've become an advocate for your kids. And I've totally seen it. And that's what Jane is, too. I feel like this. I love this story so much. I mean, there's so much I want to say about it. But it is a story sort of about regret. Jane brings up that one moment, when she was on the phone with Nona unknown. It was like having like trouble with her friends or she wanted to be in the popular group or something. And Jane was like, you just gotta be strong. And right away, I felt that the narrative felt so bad. And then she brought that moment up, I think two more times, like she brought it back. And that I thought was really good writing. And something that's so interesting about like, just a moment in time like this. I don't know if this came out of a prompt, but it may have like a moment I regret. And then she writes this whole story about the value of being a chopper mom.

Allison Langer  12:09  
And I think when you say this is good writing, you mean it's vulnerable, the narrator is getting vulnerable. And so it's more than just about like what it appears there's more to it. And so that is yeah, that's where the good writing is.

Speaker 1  12:22  
She's vulnerable, and she brings back a moment that really hurt her. She brings it back once we already know it. And I think callbacks like that are really good writing. The way she set up the story was everything. First of all, it's very, very visual. I just noticed that right now. Like we see the gym. And we're right there in the gym with these other parents. And then we get exactly who Jane is like she's so she's like, Yeah, she's reading the Iliad, in Latin. And then she got it wrong.

Allison Langer  12:59  
I love that that Bruce is like, Don't you mean Greek?

Speaker 1  13:02  
But then Bruce, her husband and the dad I've known he's supporting her like he's like, yeah, yeah, but don't you mean Greek? I just, I see them together like, oh, no, no,

Allison Langer  13:15  
we really get their personality. Yeah, yes,

Speaker 1  13:17  
exactly. And we see that Jane was not having it with these who she called helicopter mom. She was just like, good lord with these people. But at the very end, she admits that she and I really liked there were few endings like I thought there were few endings, but I love the ending ending where she said just like me, they just want to show their kids that they love them. So she also harkens back to these Parkin, I just said, Harkat. She harkens back,

Allison Langer  13:45  
definitely say it again.

Speaker 1  13:46  
Yeah, I'll say it again. She harkens back to these women in the gym, or the parents in the gym. That was really cool at the end. Another thing I noticed, I'm sorry, you want to say something? Did you want to say something?

Allison Langer  13:59  
No, no, why would I want to say something? So

Speaker 1  14:02  
I wanted to say that Jane did a really good job of raising the stakes a few times. So she was a biologist, she had cancer, then her son had seizures. So it sounds bad. But then in the next sentence, he needed brain surgery. It was really bad. She needed to like put all of her attention into her own. First she had a huge job, then she has a health crisis herself. And then she has a huge health crisis for her other kit. And then she explains so well how her friends unknown and more than she did. And then that moment, that kind of changed, everything happened.

Allison Langer  14:39  
You know, we talk a lot about dropping bombs. And Jane did a really good job of like dropping in these really big situations or circumstances and then explaining them so that we felt satisfied as a reader as we moved on to the next section. Yeah, that was really well done.

Speaker 1  14:56  
Did you think cutting was a bomb? No. Because

Allison Langer  15:00  
I got it. I mean, she considered it, they addressed it, they seem to, you know, resolve it in the sense of the story. So I felt complete, and and feel like I was paying, I thought it raised the stakes again. Well, there's consequences to every behavior, including reaching out and you know, screaming at a teacher or, you know, sending a letter or having cancer, that causes a problem, and it's not discussed, it doesn't feel realistic. So the fact that she brought all this in here shows us that there was a consequence to every single action she brings up in the story. Yeah,

Speaker 1  15:39  
right. She doesn't just tell us, uh, you know, that she hung up the phone too quickly on her kid, basically, she says, and this is what happened because of that. Yeah, her daughter tried to tried cutting. Then she goes to the part where her daughter is in this shit theater program. And I thought she did a really good job explaining what was problematic about it. And also her again, like her personality. She she writes a three page manifesto. And she was so knowing, like, she recognizes that well, well, maybe that manifesto was a bit overkill.

Allison Langer  16:15  
You know? Yes. She says no, no, organized a lobbying session that was far more diplomatic than my manifesto.

Speaker 1  16:22  
did. Yeah. Yeah. She's great at bringing back callbacks. Then she says that the house was no longer a sick house like it was working. So the story What is the story about? I was a mom making up for lost time. I think that's it stated. And sometimes, I think it's so beautiful and satisfying for me as a reader or listener to just hear it. It wasn't like, you know, she didn't do anything fancy there. She just told us. I love that. Then she remembered the phone call again. And then the best line ever. Fuck me gently with a chainsaw. That was a proud moment. Yeah,

Allison Langer  17:07  
love it.

Unknown Speaker  17:08  
Yeah, so good. Really good. I love it.

Allison Langer  17:13  
Thank you for listening. And thank you chain for sharing your story. If you would like to hear more Jane, check out episode 149. The more things change the more brussel sprouts stay the same. Believe me, you will never look at brussel sprouts the same again and you will laugh your ass off.

So writing class radio is hosted by me, Alison laner. And me Andrea Moskowitz audio production by Matt Cundill. Evans, her Minsky, Chloe and Mone lane, and ating Blasi at the sound off media company. The music is by Justina Shambler. There's more writing class on our website including stories we study editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. If you want to write with us every week, you can join first draft, you have the option to join me on Tuesdays 1220 Eastern or Thursdays with Eduardo wink, eight to 9pm. Eastern, you get to write to a prompt and share what you wrote. And if you're a business owner, community activist group that needs healing entrepreneur or you just want to help your team write better. Check out all the classes we offer on our website writing class radio.com. Join the community that comes together for instruction and excuse to write in the support from other writers. To learn more, go to patreon.com/writing class radio or our website to sign up for a free zoom link. The free link is also on Instagram and our social media bios. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Speaker 1  18:56  
There is no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

Produced and distributed by the sound off media company

Show Notes Episode 166: The Most Unique Essay We've Ever Aired

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Kimberly Elkins. Kimberly is the author of the novel, WHAT IS VISIBLE, which was a New York Times Book Review Editors' Choice and named to several Best of 2014 lists. She’s written for The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Iowa Review, The Chicago Tribune, The Los Angeles Review of Books, Glamour, Slice, The Cincinnati Review, and Best New American Voices. She was a Finalist for the National Magazine Award, and has also won a New York Moth StorySlam. You can find her on X  @GoodWordGirl. 

Kimberly’s story was originally published in The Cincinnati Review and is the most unique essay I think we’ve ever gotten. It uses second person point of view and still, it’s vulnerable. It’s short. It’s mighty. It’s amazing.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. You can also sign up for Second Draft, which meets Thursdays 12-1 ET. This group is for writers looking for feedback on a more polished draft for publication. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

Transcript

Andrea Askowitz  0:00  
 I'm Andrea Askowitz.

Allison Langer  0:16  
I'm Alison Langer and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story and by art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives. Writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we workout our shit. 

Andrea Askowitz  0:39  
Shit. 

Allison Langer  0:41  
There's no place in the world like Writing Class, and we want to bring you in.

Andrea Askowitz  0:46  
Today on our show, we bring you a story by Kimberly Elkins. Kimberly is the author of the novel What Is Visible, which was a New York Times Book Review Editor's Choice and name to several Best of 2014 lists. She's written for the Atlantic, the New York Times the Iowa review, the Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles Review of Books, Glamour slice, the Cincinnati review, and Best New American voices. She was a finalist for the National Magazine Award and has also won a New York moth story slam. Okay, now I'm jealous.

Allison Langer  1:19  
Good God. That's a long list.

Andrea Askowitz  1:22  
I know she's gotten all this great writing stuff. But I'm jealous of her New York Moth Story Slam win. Damn her. 

Allison Langer  1:30  
Yeah, you are.

Andrea Askowitz  1:31  
Okay. Her website is Kimberlyelkins.com and you can find her on Twitter at Good Word Girl. All of this info will be on our website and in our show notes wherever you get your podcast. Her story was originally published in the Cincinnati Review. Yay for the Cincinnati Review because now they got my attention. This is the most unique essay I think we've ever gotten. It uses the second person point of view, and it's still vulnerable. It's short. It's mighty. It's amazing.

Allison Langer  2:03  
Back with Kimberly Elkins story after the break. We're back. This is Alison Langer and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Kimberly Elkins reading her story, The Game For Winners.

Kimberly Elkins  2:16  
We call it fainting. Gathered in a not at recess or after lunch at an Empty Quarter or corner of the gym. Wherever the teachers had been told to stop the game couldn't find us. The game went like this. You knelt and breathe deeply 1,2,3 and then jumped up as hard and as fast as you could. A boy's arms wrapped around you from behind in a bear hug squeezing the air from your diaphragm. A tingle in your stomach, hard trail, thrill burn up to your chest. Like the compression of body in the seconds and airplanes wheels leave the ground. You slumped in his arms as the world pinhole to one tiny point of blackness. And when you walk lying on the floor, how much later minutes or hours or days you had no idea. The strange faces crowded in the circle above you, seconds of near terror. You would left this life, this realm for an obliteration of consciousness of the cornerless sky and of all the senses. And there was no better feeling than waking to that thunderhead of confusion. You find euphoria in disorientation. You find euphoria in displacement. You find euphoria and losing the who, what, when, where and why. To be lost is to dwell wholly in the present and so you continue to choose it. Breathe deeply in and out 1,2,3 and jump up in bed to do it again and again until your vision doubled, and your head and on the stalk of your neck. The best fainter that's what you were. The unbeaten champion, the absolute best at going under, at staying under. Girls were better at fainting boys were better at squeezing. Although if you've always wanted to be fainted, too. It was strange to watch a boy gun that we laid out carefully on the floor. Even in the fifth grade, it seemed that position was meant for girls. Years later, you found that same wush of unbecoming with the drinking with certain drugs. Coming to on your back naked or not turning your head on the pillow against the floor against the car seat. Maybe a base above yours lowering itself to meet your mouth or the back of the tassel head you don't recognize and then the hardest part of the game, but also the most thrilling, trying to figure out where you were, how you got there. How long you've been out of touch with the world. But you were back in it may be against your deepest wishes, your truest desires. And there was nothing left to do but to get up, to sit or crawl forward on the carpet, on the gravel on the grass, on the bed, and then to rise and to keep rising. To live to tell the tale. You were the best at this game. You still are, you sick winner.

Allison Langer  5:32  
I mean, insane, insane, insane, insane. Insane. I just, I when I read this, I was so drawn in. I thought it was so powerfully written. So simple and the story is just not when I've ever heard. I was like, wow, wow. Right? 

Andrea Askowitz  5:52  
Yes. And when you say insane what you're saying is fucking awesome. 

Allison Langer  5:57  
Yes. 

Andrea Askowitz  5:58  
But also, I think you're right. It is a little. It's a little off in a way that I am so impressed by. She says things that you like, like, I hate that there's sort of like a thought police out there, but there kind of is. And she says, she's literally describing a blackout. And then she calls it thrilling. I don't know that you're allowed in quotes to talk like that to say that out loud. But she did. I'm so impressed with her honesty. That was the part that like gave me chills. 

Allison Langer  6:32  
Yeah, cuz it's like we are inside her head. She has not processed and filtered to get it on the page like most writing, it is in side. Unprocessed, totally raw.

Andrea Askowitz  6:45  
Yeah. This is the line that I swear I was like chose, chose. And then the hardest part of the game, but also the most thrilling, trying to figure out where you were how you got there. How long you'd been out of touch with the world? That's right after she's describing, coming to naked or not. Maybe there's someone who she was with maybe not. Damn.

Allison Langer  7:09  
We learned so much about this narrator. So much.

Andrea Askowitz  7:13  
Ah, yes. Wow. Oh, I want to talk also about the use of the second person because that's also something that's so different. So, okay, this narrator is so vulnerable and so honest. But how is it that she used the second person which is that means she used the word you instead of what we typically see in a personal essay, which is I and she used it in a way you said right after we you Allison, not the general you but you said as soon as we stopped hearing it, how it brought you in. And usually I feel like the second person is like a distancing tactic a little bit. I feel like narrator's use it when they're when they're starting to get too scared or too close to something that's hard.

Allison Langer  7:59  
Well, I think that you separate the writer from whatever she's writing. But I've always felt that it brings everybody else into the story, because the you then brings us all into the you. We are when she says you were talking about everyone, not just her. So that's why I felt so drawn in.

Andrea Askowitz  8:20  
So what I think she did, and I think that so I've heard this a few times now and now I'm seeing it one more time and I think that the way she did what you just described, so she starts with the general you. And she's talking to all of us, as if we've all knelt and breathe deeply. Like we've all lost ourselves in this way. Like we've all slumped in the arms of someone and lost our breath, but then she takes it to the end, and she is clearly talking to herself. You were the best at this game. You still are, you sick winner. She is calling herself out right there. 

Allison Langer  8:59  
Yeah. 

Andrea Askowitz  9:00  
How did she do that? How did she go from talking to all of us to talking to herself, so seamlessly. Like I almost didn't notice it, but this time I noticed it and I was like, whoa, that's cool. 

Allison Langer  9:12  
That was the best last line ever. 

Andrea Askowitz  9:14  
Yeah, she's judging herself. She's also praising herself.

Allison Langer  9:20  
Yeah, she's saying I know it's not good. Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz  9:22  
I don't know how long it is. I want to check to see how long it is. It's 487 words, in less than 500 words. This narrator tells us this whole story this there, there are two vivid scenes. It travels from being in fifth grade to being an adult.

Allison Langer  9:41  
Wow. Well, I'm so glad we were able to share this story with our listeners. And I'm so glad Kimberly Elkins shared this story with us because we get a lot of submissions and some I'm like, okay, I don't know about the story. It's not unique. It's kind of blah. It's not fixed, it's not finished. It's not but I felt like this was a full piece. It was something I had not heard before and it was really it drew me in completely. So I'm glad we were able to share it.

Andrea Askowitz  10:08  
It was a new situation and it was a new take. I mean, it was a new situation and it was a new kind of not take, but it was a new perspective craft wise, it was very different.

Allison Langer  10:21  
Yeah, you're right. Yes. We haven't seen something laid out like this. 

Andrea Askowitz  10:26  
Beautiful 

Allison Langer  10:28  
All right. Thank you for listening. And thank you Kimberly Elkins for sharing your story.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by me Alison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz  10:44  
And me Andrea Askowitz. 

Allison Langer  10:46  
Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminsky, Chloe Emond-Lane and Aiden glassy of Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler. There's more Writing Class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. If you want to write with us every week, you can join our first draft weekly writers group. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12 to 1 Eastern and or Thursday with Eduardo Wink, 8 to 9pm Eastern. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you're a business owner, community activist group that needs healing entrepreneur and you want to help your whole team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com. Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to patreon.com/writingclass radio. If you want a free Zoom link to first draft email Andrea at writingclass radio.com Or you can jump on Instagram and click on the link in bio. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Andrea Askowitz  11:57  
There is no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours? 

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  12:09  
Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

Show Notes Episode 165: A Psychiatric Hospital Nearly Ruined My Life

Banning Lyon is the author of The Chair and The Valley, which will be available June 2024. His writing has been featured in the New York Times and the Washington Post. He currently lives in the San Francisco Bay Area and works as a backpacking guide in Yosemite National Park.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. You can also sign up for Second Draft, which meets Thursdays 12-1 ET. This group is for writers looking for feedback on a more polished draft for publication. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

Transcript

Allison Langer  0:15  
I'm Allison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz  0:17  
I'm Andrea Askowitz, and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts heart and artists. By heart we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing, no matter what's going on in our lives, writing classes where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shift. That's happening like there's no place in the world like writing class, and we want to bring you in. Today on our show, we bring you a story by Banning Lyon. Banning Lyon is the author of the Chair and the Valley, which will be available June 2024. On the open field, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House. His writing has been featured in The New York Times and The Washington Post. He currently lives in the San Francisco Bay Area and works as a backpacking guide and Yosemite National Park. This episode is about so many things. But I want to say it's really about how to write a near perfect essay. The essay you're about to hear was originally published in The Washington Post.

Allison Langer  1:27  
Also, on this podcast, you're going to be able to hear an interview with Banning Lyon about his process, the good the bad, everything and how he ended up landing an agent. So really good stuff, so stay tuned to the end. Back with banning story after the break. 

We're back. This is Alison Langer, and you're listening to writing class radio. Up next is Banning Lyon reading his story "When I was 15, a psychiatric hospital nearly ruined my life."

Banning Lyon  2:06  
I've worked as a backpacking guide yes to many national park and Point Reyes National Seashore for over a decade. On an average workday, I'll patch a client's blister feet in the rain. She way bears and make daiquiris for folks using rum Kool Aid and snow. But the truth is that I've spent most of my adult life avoiding people because before I became a guide, I've been a victim of one of the largest mental health care fraud scams in the history of the United States. When I was 15, and 1987, my school counselor called My estranged parents and told them I was suicidal after I'd given away my skateboard. She said it was a call for help. I told him it wasn't true. I bought another board. I said, my friend broke his I gave him mine. I wanted a different one. It didn't matter. The next day, they signed me into a psychiatric hospital owned by a company that would eventually plead guilty to paying kickbacks and bribes for patient referrals, leading to the largest settlement ever between the federal government and a health care provider at the time. I spent 11 months sitting in a chair facing the pastel colored wall of my room, sometimes for up to 12 hours a day. The staff called a chair therapy. They said I was supposed to think about my problems. Most days I was forced to eat alone in my room. With the tray of food resting on my lap and I started the wall I wasn't allowed to go outside, touch anyone or speak privately with my parents or other patients. I eventually grew so sensory deprived, I could smell rain or sweat on the incoming staffs clothing, even from a distance. By the time I left the hospital, I was the scattered wreckage of a teenager. The chaos and noise of the world filled me with a superheated rage. I spent most of high school fantasizing about probably hanging my soul from the rafters of the gym. But the one thing that brought me genuine happiness that quieted my flashbacks and intrusive thoughts was being outside after nearly a year of living in the equivalent of solitary confinement. Even the sight of a few finches splashing in a rainy puddle brought tears to my eyes. Every detail of the natural world seems surreal. Now, before I began working as a guide, I had long believed that other people were better or more normal than me. Only a handful of my friends knew details of my past that I'd watched the hospital staff strapped kids to beds, sometimes for weeks and months at a time. One of my closest friends from the unit had been tied to his bed with leather Posey restraints for nearly a year. angry red bed sores surrounded his wrists and ankles when he was finally released. He needed physical rehabilitation before you could walk again. It wasn't until I began spending days in the back country with clients that I realized I wasn't different from them. They weren't better or more normal than me. They were alcoholics or cutters or parents who had alienated their kids. They'd lost siblings and spouses to cancer and suicide. Once early in my first season, a freckled woman from Boston with the accent to prove it broke down in tears while we are carrying water back to camp. My dad died last year she said, you won't be there to walk me down the aisle. He'll never be a grandfather to my kids. Her partner was on the trip with her. He had proposed the day before, at the foot of Yosemite is bridal veil fall, hours before meeting us. I stood there dumbfounded, listening to her grieve the loss of her father. She was sitting on a log in front of an enormous ponderosa pine. Its graceful branches hovering over her, as if her father were trying to comfort her again. I knew at that moment that I had found my place in the world, and that I needed to come to terms with my past. But I never would have found the courage without the serenity of nature and the help of my clients. Week after week, trip after trip, we explored different portions of the park, always coming to rest in some beautiful campsite at the foot of when he was somebody's towering granite peaks. Together, we build a fire and then cook dinner and talk about our lives. Slowly. Over those first few weeks, I began sharing portions of my past only to discover that no one thought any differently of me. They didn't scream and run away. They didn't stare at me in silence. Instead, they hugged me and wept with me. Some of them even understood what it was like to witness abuse and suffering, and to be helpless to stop it. By the end of that first season, it wasn't only nature that seemed surreal, but also the kindness of people. Today, after guiding hundreds of clients, I'm still wounded. I've learned there is no finish line for healing. But my wounds have meaning now. And for that, and for the people who have made it possible. I will be forever grateful. years ago, just weeks after I'd been hired, my boss invited me to go on a backpacking trip with her and two of her closest friends. Think of it as your orientation, she said, tossing her pack on her back at the trailhead. It turns out one of the men on the trip was her mentor, a seven year old retired biology teacher who looked like a gold miner who had gotten lost in the mountains. On the last morning of our trip, or we are sitting by a small lake in the shade of some older trees. I asked him for a bit of guiding wisdom.

What he gave me was hope. Just keep all your folks on the trail he said they'll show you the way

Andrea Askowitz  8:11  
Can I Start? I want to start There's so much I want to say about this essay and hearing it right now. Like I'm I have tears like I'm so moved. The read was so gorgeous. The whole story is so hopeful, even though fucking shit what he went through. And there's these two moments that, that I noticed this time that we're like all about hope. I'm going backwards. But it's the last two lines. So he lands the story so perfectly. What he gave me was hope this was the advice that he got from the older man. Just keep all your folks on the trail. He said they'll show you the way. And then the other part where he was talking, if it's just three paragraphs up, where he's talking about how he wants, he started sharing what happened to him. How other people were just, they didn't scream, they didn't run away. And it wasn't only nature, that seems surreal, but also the kindness of people. I mean, this narrator has every reason to fucking hate humanity. But he doesn't. And this story just shows us why

Allison Langer  9:30  
I feel like it really says a says a lot about him. What will we talk about when we receive stories and when we talk about stories on the podcast is mostly about how much we learn about a narrator. And in this story, we really get an A sense of who this guy is as far as his strength, his mindset. We really don't hear many details about what it was like for him in that place. Just a very few couple of details. And that's not what we need. Because that was many years ago. We're really interested in how it's impacted him now. And this narrator does that really, really well.

Andrea Askowitz  10:10  
I mean, I am interested in what it was like for him at that at that hospital. And I am interested in, in his backstory, and he did write a whole memoir. Oh, yeah. So yay, because I can't wait to read it. But for this essay, you're right. He didn't need to go into all the details about that, that nearly a year that he spent there, he gave us just enough. Sometimes I like it before, like what was life like before. And this narrator gave us really one word or two words to show us the before. And that was my school counselor called My Estranged Parents. So we know that his his parents are estranged. That's all we know. But I so believed him based on what then happened. They believe this counselor, his parents, and they took him to a psychiatric hospital that nearly ruined his life. Now I'm seeing the title in a new way. When I was 15, a psychiatric hospital nearly ruined my life. This advice saved me. And I, I love the title now because of that word nearly. Because it could have so destroyed him. But it didn't

Allison Langer  11:31  
100% The other thing I really love and we talk about this, too, is even if this situation didn't happen to us specifically, we've all been in a place where our past something in our past kind of haunts us? And how do we keep going. And this narrator really draws that home and his writing in a very succinct way, mostly about first of all, sharing his information and realizing that people were drawn to him. And also that his friends, you know, if you can keep people close, they will guide you. And we as people sometimes shut people out when we're hurting or in pain. And I've realized that I know you have that the more vulnerable I have been, the more people have drawn to me. And I see that in his story. So I completely relate it a lot. And I loved it because of that.

Andrea Askowitz  12:26  
Yeah, I know. I agree. I don't

Allison Langer  12:30  
think this guy was a writer going in was here. He's been writing for years.

Andrea Askowitz  12:36  
No, this is his first project. This book, I think that he learned to write so that he could write the story about what happened to him. And we're gonna get him on the line, which I'm so excited about because he is the loveliest man. And I spoke to him very briefly, and I can't wait to ask him some questions for our radio listeners. But yeah, he'd learned to write so that he could write this story. But there's a few other things about this essay that I wanted to mention. I mean, his details, I think his details are spot on the part where he's talking about how sensory deprived he was that he could smell rain on someone, just like the specifics of that, or sweat on an incoming staffs clothing, God, another place where his details just like really struck me where a few finches splashing in a rainy puddle. Okay, so he's amazing with details. He also, this is something that I just noticed. He knows trauma and post traumatic stress disorder, but he did not use those tired words. And I don't mean to diss anybody who's been through a traumatic event, because, you know, so many personal essays are made of like, are made, because that people are making art out of their bad situations. But God, how many of the submissions that we read, where people use words like trauma and PTSD, like they just throw them out? And they've come to kind of lose meaning for me, but banning Lyon talked about? I can't remember how he put it. Oh, he did outdoors quieted his flashbacks and intrusive thoughts. I just thought that was so well said. Basically, we understand. He just said it exactly the way a person would tell another person who isn't steeped in lingo and jargon. And I really appreciated that.

Allison Langer  14:44  
And in one paragraph, he's fantasizing about hanging himself in the rafters to the amazement of the finches in the puddle and then realizing, you know, like he thought that other people were better than him or more normal and you know, That's, that's pretty cool how in just a very succinct short paragraph we learn where this narrator's mindset was that for so long, this narrator was thinking he was not normal, and that he was the only one who had suffered. And then one by one, he starts hearing about other people. And it wasn't a comparative thing like sometimes people do. Because there really is no comparison, when you're talking about trauma, what's trauma for one person in any sort of shape, or form, it's trauma for another person in another shape or form. So I just thought that was it was really interesting that he didn't, he didn't compare. But he's just saying that once he realized that, he started to feel like he was normal, and he fit in to the world. So I thought that was really cool.

Andrea Askowitz  15:39  
One other thing that I loved, love, love so much about this essay. And that is like an essay needs to bring in evidence to prove a point. And so this narrator is telling us that he realized he wasn't different from anyone else, or from the other people that were around him. And then here's this scene. So here's the evidence that proves what he's saying. He's listening to this woman talk about her father who died, and he wasn't going to be able to walk her down the aisle. I stood there dumbfounded, listening to her grieve the loss of her father, she was sitting on a log in front of enormous ponderosa pine, its graceful branches hovering over her as if her father were trying to comfort her again. I'm like, I got chills. There's the evidence. There's this moment. It's a scene. It's, it's gorgeous. It's everything a personal essay needs to be. And now I'm distracted, because the beautiful Banning Lyon is sitting in front of us on our zoom.

Banning Lyon, thank you so much for joining us. First thing I want to ask you, I mean, I'm overwhelmed with wanting to ask you like 20 questions at once. But what I first want to ask you is about the so we know that you wrote a full memoir, actually, even before you wrote this essay. So will you talk for like a minute or two about the process of writing that memoir,

Banning Lyon  17:20  
I could talk for hours about the process of writing a memoir.

Andrea Askowitz  17:23  
That's why I said minute or two.

Banning Lyon  17:26  
When I began writing my book, I was about 45-46. I had a book deal and a movie deal shortly after the lawsuit that I was involved in, after the hospital. But I turned it down. I didn't want to be famous for being a psychiatric patient. And so it just wasn't anything I was interested in. But I had an event take place, I became a backpacking guide, and Yosemite National Park, I still backpack and guide. They're an outdoor educator in the Bay Area, I also teach outdoor skills. And that was sort of my way to reconnect to people. Because I grew up in the outdoors, it's always been my happy place. And I was disconnected from the hospital. So I had an event take place on a class. And I can't discuss the details of that, because it really is sort of crucial to my story. But when I had that event take place, I knew that I was sort of, I had a moral obligation to write a book, in many ways. And I think a lot of what powered my writing was survivor guilt, because a lot of my friends from the hospital are dead. And I felt sort of compelled to do what I could with the rest of my life, because I feel like the rest of my life is very much a gift compared to theirs.

Andrea Askowitz  18:37  
So 30 years later, you started to write your book 30 years later, yeah,

Banning Lyon  18:42  
I've always been kind of a writer, I dabbled with it and mess with it. But I didn't really learn the actual trade or craft of writing until I took this book very seriously. So much so that I took a year off from writing the book and actually to basically put myself through a kind of a college level, style and grammar course in order to understand to like, embrace my voice, because my voice isn't what I wanted it to be. I wanted to be a very certain type of writer and then discovered my voice wanted me to very be a very different kind of writer. And so I had to learn to embrace that voice, which I came to love, and I'm very good at, but it wasn't initially how I wanted to sound.

Andrea Askowitz  19:19  
How would you describe how you wanted to sound and how do you how would you describe how you do sound?

Banning Lyon  19:23  
I wanted to be very sort of writerly when I first started wanting to write I wanted to embellish everything and really get into details and and I think there's a time and a place for that and writing but I found out that actually write very economically I write like, basically like a journalist and that I think in many ways lended itself to my story because a it's very long and I needed to keep it brief.

Andrea Askowitz  19:48  
I just want to interrupt for a second to say to anyone listening. Sometimes it's really important to get out of our own writerly Minds, Like Writer Lee in quotes and just tell the story And I think that you are a great example of someone who had learned to do that. I know it based on your essay, your essay is just a great, well told, not pretentious, not Writer Lee, perfectly told story. So how long did it take you to write the full memoir and tell me a little bit about like, you told me this the other day on the phone, but like, what was your process like what you put yourself through?

Banning Lyon  20:24  
Yeah, writing my memoir took me in total, a good six years. And it included probably three full rewrites, my initial first draft was entirely too long. And so I cut my manuscript nearly in half, by the time I'd finished. And I'm not one of those writers who just for the sake of writing is going to write every day. But if I have a project I write every day period, no exceptions seven days a week. And when I was writing my book, I wrote often, no fewer than 10 hours a day, and probably as many is 16. And I often did not eat, I wouldn't take breaks, I wouldn't stand up for hours and hours and hours at a time, which to me is totally normal. Because when I lived in the hospital, that was my life. And so it's a familiar place for me to just sort of go into my head and live there for many hours and not eat or drink or do anything and then sort of come to it.

Andrea Askowitz  21:25  
Was it comforting when you were writing your book? Or was it a sort of a form of self torture?

Banning Lyon  21:29  
Both, I think in many ways, revisiting my past was both horrifically traumatizing, and comforting, because there are people from my past who are no longer here, who I could only really spend time with in the book. And so my book, in many ways is a love story is like a love letter to those people. And I won't say it was like masochistic. But it many times, I felt as if I was doing harm to myself by writing because it was so incredibly painful. I'd spend hours crying while I was writing, knowing that it was really good writing, but I just simply couldn't stop because I was in the right place. Emotionally, in order to get into what I needed to get into in order to get the words on paper. It was a very, very, very brutal process that took me many years. And I often wonder, sometimes looking back now, if I had known what this entire journey to publishing would be like, you know, would I have done it? And I would, ultimately, I know that in my heart of hearts, because it's also been very cathartic and therapeutic for me to have undergone this process. But I think ultimately, it's been a net gain. And goodness,

Andrea Askowitz  22:44  
when you were finished with the chair in the valley, what did you do? How did you get your agent because I know that you got your agent and your publisher in a very unusual and your testament to the brilliance of your writing, you got an agent, that way,

Banning Lyon  22:58  
you have very few shots to get your memoir in front of an agent, you basically can do it once. And then when you're turned away, you don't have another chance to really top your book to that agent or agency. And so have really good high quality agents, you have maybe 100 to 200 in the United States, or in the world, it really essentially. And so I knew my book had to be very, very, very good. And so I worked on really tightening up, I worked on writing a really tight query letter, which a good friend of mine, who's also a writer helped me with, I wrote ultimately about 4040 query letters. And I got, I think, out of those maybe eight full requests, which is about par for the course, I think for most writers, the few rejections I got were very kind. They were often like, we're not the right agency for you, or I'm not the right agent, I think you'll find a home for it. So from the very beginning, really my top pick, was an agent named Nick Thompson. I just sort of had this gut feeling that I Meg and I would resonate. I'm not sure why exactly. And then I read an interview with her and Curtis, they asked her what's your least favorite genre to get queried, and she said memoir? And she said, because it's often just derivative or some story that's being retold and that she really loves memoirs, but they're just good ones are so rare. And so I don't know what inspired me. In those words. I was like, That's aged like that. I just knew and so I queried mag. And I've basically written her off because as most writers who are acquiring understand now silence really is the common rejection. Getting a rejection letter is actually kind of a rare treat. But one

Andrea Askowitz  24:35  
thing that you told me is that you queried Meg Thompson, cold, you didn't know anyone that knew her. And the game lately is you really need to say so and so suggested I query you, but you didn't have that you didn't have a step into the door.

Banning Lyon  24:52  
I had no sort of referral at all. I called curator and I did that really for every agent except one. And so I didn't hear about back from her for nearly three months through what's called query manager. And then one day, I heard back from egg and she said, I read your query with interest. I'd like to read the full manuscript that's like, wow, that's cool. By then I gotten, you know, I think, like I said, about seven full manuscript requests. So I was like, Don't get too excited. You know, it'll probably just be a rejection, but still, you know, and so I sent her the full manuscript and kind of put it out of my mind. Two weeks passed, and then I heard back, I sent her a proposal says, like, Okay, I'll just sit here, twiddling my thumbs. And so, two, three weeks passed. And I just was like, Okay, I guess she didn't like my proposal. And I was a little heartbroken because Meg was my number one pick. And then one day, I was actually in kind of a sour mood. I was really sad and kind of mulling over this defeat that I had been looking so forward to. I was very deflated that day. I came home and I was cutting watermelon for my daughter. And my email alert went off. And I just grabbed my phone just offhandedly and looked at it, and it said offer representation from Thomson literary agency, you know, I broke down into tears. I mean, I sat on the floor and just started crying. It was a huge, huge moment for me.

Andrea Askowitz  26:10  
But the way that you did it was seriously like 0.1% of anybody who gets an agent gets an agent out of the slush pile. And so it is so amazing and fantastic.

Banning Lyon  26:25  
Yeah, as most writers know, it's like winning the Powerball lottery, it was really a huge, huge, huge, huge thing for me. But then, you know, then you have to publisher and so that was a whole nother part of the journey. So

Andrea Askowitz  26:37  
tell us just quickly who your publisher is. And what's the release date.

Banning Lyon  26:41  
I'm being published on an imprint called the open field, which is Maria Shriver has personally curated imprint on Penguin Random House. And my book is slated to be released in June of 24.

Andrea Askowitz  26:54  
One last thing I want to say is that most writers, they try to get the attention of an agent through a splashy story, like the one that we just heard in the Washington Post. But you got the agent and then you wrote this story in the Washington Post. So your story just stand on its own. Your story is beyond beautiful and tragic. And you bring meaning to it in a way. That's amazing.

Banning Lyon  27:15  
Thank you. So it was quite easy to write. It only took me like 45 minutes to write the essay. By then I was very practiced writer.

Andrea Askowitz  27:23  
Don't tell us bad bad.

Banning Lyon  27:26  
So let me elaborate quickly because while the essay took me 45 minutes to write the last paragraph took me two days to tweak. So the day I got it, I was like, Okay, this is done. I just knew it.

Andrea Askowitz  27:37  
Well, it really took six years of writing the book and a lifetime of experience. And then 45 minutes plus two days, so well, on petting lion.

Allison Langer  27:50  
I think for us, like just being able to share your words with our listeners is so amazing. So thank you so much for taking the time and doing that with us. Really?

Banning Lyon  27:59  
You're all very well. Yeah, thank you.

Andrea Askowitz  28:01  
It's goofy to say you're an inspiration, but I'm inspired.

Banning Lyon  28:05  
Thanks for your interest means a lot to me.

Allison Langer  28:07  
So thank you for listening and thank you Banning for sharing your story with us. Writing class radio is hosted by me, Alison Langer. And Andrea asked what's audio production is by Matt Cundill Evans Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane and Aidan Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler. There's more writing class on our website including stories we studied editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. You want to write every week with us you can join our first draft weekly writers group, you have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12 to 1 Eastern Time and or Thursdays with Eduardo wink 8 to 9pm Eastern time. Your right to prompt and share what you wrote. If you're a business owner, community activist group that needs healing entrepreneur and you want to help your whole team write better check out all the classes we offer on our website, writing class radio.com. Join the community that comes together for instruction and excuse to write and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to patreon.com/writing class radio for sign up first draft on our website. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Andrea Askowitz  29:32  
There was no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  29:45  
produced and distributed by the sound off media company

Show Notes Episode 164: Can We Live on Through Our Writing?

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Amy Paturel, which is a great example of how to write about someone else while still including the narrator in a big way. Paturel incorporates her husband’s late wife’s writing into a story that is both emotional, tender, and beautifully composed. She answers the question: Can we live on through writing? She shows us that we can live on through the notes in the margins even if those notes are never published. This story was originally published in Lit Hub on June 28, 2023.

Amy Paturel’s essays have appeared in The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, Parents, Health and Good Housekeeping, among other publications. Two of her pieces have been featured in Newsweek’s “My Turn” column, and she has won two “honorable mention” awards in ASJA’s personal essay category.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. You can also sign up for Second Draft, which meets Thursdays 12-1 ET. This group is for writers looking for feedback on a more polished draft for publication. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Transcript

I'm Andrea Askowitz.

Allison Langer 0:16

I'm Allison Langer. And this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. And by art, we mean the craft of writing, no matter what's going on in our lives. Writing class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our sheeeeit. Here's no place in the world like writing class, and we want to bring you in.

Andrea Askowitz 0:44

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Amy Paturel. This story was originally published in LitHub on June 28, 2023. It is gorgeous. And this story is a really great example of how to write about someone else, and also revealing who you are as the narrator. And it does something else that's just amazing. Which is really, really hard. I don't know, I don't want to give any spoilers, but it's about someone who's died. And it's also about writing, and the importance of writing as a way to keep that person alive. Back with Amy's story after the break. We're back. This is Andrea Askowitz and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Amy Paturel, reading her story, Getting to Know My Husband's Late Wife Through the Words She Left Behind.

Amy Paturel 1:48

Shortly after my husband Brandon and I began dating, I was shocked to discover his bookshelves housed the same titles I had on mine. Beloved, The Cider House Rules, The Book of Ruth. The books weren't his. He doesn't share my passion for reading. They belong to his late wife. When Brandon and I married two years later, I found myself grappling with whether to keep Shereese's copy of East of Eden or mine. I was intrigued about the woman who came before me, and captivated by her love of the craft. We shared a way of inhabiting and understanding the world through storytelling. Me, as a journalist and essayist. Shareese, as a fiction writer and poet who died before she had a chance to publish. Since I couldn't read Shareese's work online, I asked Brandon to set aside some of her writing. I wanted to get a sense of her voice. "I'm sure she would love for you to read her stories," he said, hauling a giant cardboard box to my office. Inside the box were composition notebooks filled with poems, essays and short fiction she wrote during graduate school, along with her thoughts on writing. I wrestled with whether she would want me, the new wife, to have an all-access pass to her notebooks on craft. But when I told her sister I felt pulled to explore Shereese's work, she encouraged me. Even more compelling the words Shereese wrote seemed like a plea. "I'm leaving behind a trail of breadcrumbs in the form of good intentions," she wrote. In one binder, she'd even tucked a slip of paper with names, addresses and submission guidelines for several publishers. Almost like a roadmap to a destination only another writer could navigate. I'd always been drawn to handwritten remnants of a person's life. The chicken scratch in my grandmother's Bible, my mom's penciled captions on old photographs. The letters my sister wrote me when I studied in Spain. Handwritten words helped me feel closer to the person who wrote them. I wanted to know Shereese too, so I studied her notes like a forensic wordsmith, looking for clues. She wrote in black ballpoint ink with scripts so beautiful, it could have been its own font. Her writing spoke to me like we were in the same room. I could almost hear her saying, "I was here. Look at these letters. The curl in my G, the pause of the pen, the way I write with a mix of print and cursive, just like you." But her words stopped me cold. "Death, get ready to tangle with the living," she wrote. That passage came from her notes on a novel idea about two friends who were ripped from each other's lives when one of them unexpectedly died. She called life The Great Game Show, and the dead the disqualified contestants. "Maybe that explains my hang up in a nutshell. I want to play forever," she wrote. I felt like we were in a pas de deux between worlds. She's dead. I'm living. I wasn't interested in learning more about the life she shared with Brandon. That story ended before it began, just six months after they married. But as an investigative journalist, I was obsessed with her life as a writer. Which books she'd never finished reading, how her half written stories might have ended, whether she would have become an award winning novelist. I thumb through her books on craft: Phillip Lopate's Art of the Personal Essay, Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird, Joyce Carol Oates' The Faith of a Writer, with her penciled notes still legible on the margins. But when I discovered her dog eared copy of The Book of Questions, a title I also owned, with questions like, "Would you like to know the precise date of your death? And if you could choose your manner of death, what would it be?" circled in black Sharpie, I nearly dropped the book. I never met Shereese, but I could see myself in the philosophical question she posed in the margins, if not in the ones she circled. The date of death? March 24, 2006. The manner, according to her death certificate? Blunt impacts to the head and neck. A red Jeep Cherokee slammed into Shereese's blue Subaru Outback, flipping it over one and a half times, landing with the driver's side door flush with the concrete. The Jeep's driver, intoxicated and fresh from the casino at 8:05am, survived. Shereese was dead before paramedics arrived. Like a psychic detective working a decades-long cold case, I felt pulled to her stories. I skimmed through them first, then tucked them away in a cabinet. But they called me. Months and years later, I would get an ethereal nudge to go back in and page through them again. Shereese even showed up in my dreams, including one where she left behind stacks of handwritten pages for me to manage. I thought about writing a novel loosely based on our otherworldly connection. But as I delved more deeply into the notebooks Brandon brought to my office, my focus turned toward getting her writing published. She had dozens of half written stories, beginnings of novels, and poems so dark and foreboding they read as if she knew her life would be cut short. As if she were living with an eye toward the end. Reverent, rhapsodic, almost eulogistic. I sit here in my room of wonder, books stacked to the ceiling, many written by people who no longer live. What can I make of this? "The first thought that comes to mind is that death for them is a non-death, if death means silence," she wrote. "They continue to speak. Their words are audible to human ears, and that is their triumph. They stretch beyond the grave. Will I?" She had such talent, such grasp of the craft, and her words engulfed me like a leaf caught in a gust of wind. I read through her journals over lunch while idling in the school pickup line. I even reflected on her storylines instead of mine between meal prep and dinner time. At night, while Brandon on our three sons slept, I slipped seamlessly from the world Shereese no longer inhabited into the fictional ones she created. And I began to believe her conjecture that writers defy death. Their words stretch beyond the grave like a composite of their souls. Shereese's stories moved me. They challenged and inspired me. They also made me feel guilty. It wasn't just that I'd inherited her life, her husband, her dog, even almost unbelievably, her teaching job, but also that I had achieved her dream of publishing. I haven't been able to find a home for Shereese's work... yet. But published or not, Shereese was a writer. In the same way I connected to the authors of memoirs we both read and loved, her notes, belongings and books became a sort of physical memoir, one that didn't die with her. "Life is so precious, there is never enough of it. And when it breathes out, what is left will be the working of our hands," she wrote. "That's where I come full circle. It is the need to be known. The fear of not only be unknown, but of being unknown." I didn't connect to Shereese from the tributes left on her memorial page, or from the stories and memories Brandon and her loved ones shared. I came to know her through words on a page. Uncensored, raw, real. Like we were friends separated only by space and time. In that way, maybe she did defy death, like the authors we both loved- through her left behind journals and notes scribbled in the margins.

Allison Langer 9:17

Okay, I love Amy Paturel. Every story I've ever read by her, I just am always just entranced. She's an amazing, amazing writer. And, I mean, what I find amazing is this narrator was able to write about someone else, but includes so much of herself. And I find that a very difficult thing to do, because a lot of people want to write about their grandmother or their mom or something and I'm like, where's the narrator? But I feel like I really got to know our narrator through this story about Shereese.

Andrea Askowitz 9:53

Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about whether or not I wanted more of the narrator, because I guess I just got enough of the narrator. I'm in love with this story. I think it's so interesting and fascinating. But we do get- I like your question now, because what we do get about this narrator is like her- And she only mentioned it a little bit like, I don't know if she even called it guilt, but she inherited this woman's husband, dog, and even her job. But the part that she, I think, feels most about is that she's gotten this- this woman Shereese's dream to come true. She- our narrator- is a published writer. While Shereese...

Allison Langer 10:36

Well that's not exactly right. Shereese wanted to be the published narrator, so I don't think her dream came true. But she's looking to try to make that happen. And that's what she says, by trying to get her published.

Andrea Askowitz 10:48

Yeah, she's trying to get Shereese's stuff published. I want to talk about that in a second. But let me go back to that part.

Allison Langer 10:55

It's towards the end, she says, "But published or not, Shereese was a writer. In the same way I connected to the authors of memoirs we both read and loved, her notes, belongings and books became a sort of physical memoir, one that didn't die with her."

Andrea Askowitz 11:09

Yes, yeah, yeah. I'm talking about the part where our narrator says she inherited- she inherited her husband, her dog, and- but there was something there that now I can't find it.

Allison Langer 11:20

Let me read that paragraph. It says, "Shereese's stories moved me. They challenged and inspired me. They also made me feel guilty. It wasn't just that I'd inherited her life, her husband, dog and almost unbelievably her teaching job, but also that I achieved her dream of publishing."

Andrea Askowitz 11:36

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So our narrator achieved Shereese's dream of publishing. And we learn so much about the narrator right there, because what she feels about that- and one thing that I do want to say, is that since this publication- and this- this is a re-airing of an essay that was published in LitHub, but what I also know is that this narrator got one of Shereese's poems published in LitHub. So Shereese is now a published author. I'm so excited for her.

Allison Langer 12:09

Posthumously, yeah, yeah, yeah. posthumously. That's cool.

Andrea Askowitz 12:13

That is cool. So just to say that, that- that did happen.

Allison Langer 12:16

Maybe that'll happen with us. Somebody will buy our shit, or manuscripts once we dead.

Andrea Askowitz 12:23

Isn't that what happens to all of- all artists who are ahead of their time? It is, it's what happens. I'll be cool with that. But I'd like to- I'd like to see some success now. Okay.

Allison Langer 12:33

Me too.

Andrea Askowitz 12:34

Putting it out there. Yeah. Okay, so can I start from the top about what I love so much about this? Yeah. Okay. So right away I am- I'm kind of in love with all the characters in this story. Brandon, and Shereese's sister. They're so generous. They are cool. Because it is a big ask. Can I read the handwritten work of your ex who died? Like that's a lot. And then we see Brandon just coming in with a big box filled with with Shereese's writing. I think that's beautiful. And then the sister is like, Yeah, I think she would like that. So I'm just- I love everybody so far.

Allison Langer13:15

Yeah. 100%.

Andrea Askowitz 13:16

Like, these are good people. I feel like I'm surrounded by really good people. So I just wanted to say that. Okay, and then what our narrator is doing, she's like, she's dropping breadcrumbs. One of the lines at the very top is, "I'm leaving behind breadcrumbs." That's a line from Shereese's writing. And Shereese is- this is like otherworldly, this story. And somehow, Shereese knew that she was going to die. She also wrote "Death, get ready to tangle with the living." That was from a novel Sharif was writing.

Allison Langer 13:53

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz 13:54

And then our narrator uses this really cool French word?

Allison Langer 13:58

Pas de deux?

Andrea Askowitz 13:59

Pas de deux. She's in a pas de deux between two worlds. And I said- I totally, like, I mean, I want to make fun of the French because I'm really making fun of me for, like, being stupid and not really knowing what that means. But I totally get it, like, I get that she's like- our narrator Amy is like...

Allison Langer 14:17

It's a dance.

Andrea Askowitz 14:18

She is in a dance, right, with Shereese.

Allison Langer 14:22

So something that the listener's not seeing is the quotes. So sometimes it's hard when you're listening to know who's saying what, and we can see it because we see that it's in italics, or quotes, or whatever is going on in this essay. So if you were confused, maybe just go to LitHub and just check it out, and relisten or reread it or something like that.

Andrea Askowitz 14:46

And we'll also have the full transcript on our website, writingclassradio.com. But I want to right now read three quotes that were Shereese's quotes. The first one was one I just read but I'm gonna read it again. "Death get ready. to tangle with the living." That was from Shereese's novel. And then later, Shereese wrote, "Would you like to know the precise date of your death? If you could choose manner of death, what would it be?" That's what Shereese wrote. Oh, and then the narrator so elegantly told us exactly how Shereese died. And it was kind of brutal. But she just wrote it down. She just said it. And I- I am so thankful, because I wanted to know, and then she gave it to us. It's not part of the story. It's not really relevant. But it's one of those things that's like, maybe nagging at the reader or at the listener, like, wait, what? Why? How did she die? She was young. So we know she was in a car accident.

Allison Langer 15:45

There was one more quote, did you see the one at the end?

Andrea Askowitz 15:48

I didn't write down the quote, but I did write down Amy's words, which was, "She had an eye toward the end." So that was our narrator telling us that Shereese knew, on some level. Like she, she had, like- she must have known.

Allison Langer 16:02

Well, it says- Let me read it. "Life is so precious, there's never enough of it. And when it breathes out, what is left will be the workings of our hands. That's where I come full circle. It is the need to be known. The fear of not only the unknown, but of being unknown." That whole quote was Shereese's.

Andrea Askowitz 16:23

That hits me hard.

Allison Langer 16:24

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz 16:24

Because I have a fear of being unknown. I mean, I'm also afraid of the unknown. That's gorgeous.

Allison Langer 16:31

No, I just think the thing is, this whole essay is amazing. It is not easy to write about other people. And to be able to pull in quotes from their writing, or things that they've said, and make it all work and make sense, and also have it pertain to you. I mean, this- this writer is really talented.

Andrea Askowitz 16:53

You made fun of me earlier, before we were on the air about asking the question, "Do writers defy death?" Because um, yeah, they do. That question is raised in this essay. And it is answered, because writers defy death. Yes, they do. And in this story, Shereese defied death. And that's why I think this is so brilliant. Make fun of me, go on.

Allison Langer 17:17

Another reason to write! Another reason to write. Get it down.

Andrea Askowitz 17:21

Damn, Amy.

Allison Langer 17:22

Thank you for listening. And thank you, Amy Paturel, for sharing your story.

Allison Langer 17:36

Writing class radio is hosted by me, Allison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz 17:39

And me, Andrea Askowitz.

Allison Langer 17:41

Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aidan Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Chandler. There's more writing class on our website, writingclassradio.com, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats- which by the way, we have one coming up in December.

Andrea Askowitz 18:05

Yeah, talk about it. Yeah.

Allison Langer 18:07

So we only have, well, actually, we have two- three spots left. One in the house and two out of the house. So if you're interested in finding out more about what we do on our writing retreats, and what that looks like in the house, and where it is, and blah blah blah, it's going to be December 5th through the 10th, 2023. So jump on our website under classes and look up the Key Largo writing treat.

Andrea Askowitz 18:10

Let me just tell you something a week in Key Largo with the likes of us is fucking amazing. Just saying.

Allison Langer 18:31

Yeah. If you don't like us now, you will like us afterwards. Or if you like us, now, you're gonna love us. Right?

Andrea Askowitz 18:47

Do you think people don't like us?

Allison Langer 18:48

Well, they probably stopped listening by now.

Andrea Askowitz 18:51

That's true. If they're listening to this, they might like us. Thanks for listening to all this. Thanks.

Allison Langer 18:55

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our first draft weekly writers group. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays, 12 to 1 Eastern time, or Eduardo Wink Thursdays, eight to 9pm. Eastern time. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. You can also join second draft on Thursday. I'm going to be facilitating that from 12 to 1 Eastern time. So that's where you get to bring in another draft, you know, a more worked-on draft for real edits, so you can try to get published. Like Amy Paturel. All that stuff is on our website. And if you're a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist, group that needs healing, or you want your team to write better, we can totally help. So check out all our classes on our website, writingclassradio.com. Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Andrea Askowitz 19:48

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

Tara Sands (Voiceover) 19:59

Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

00:0020:04

Show Notes Episode 163: Letters to My Son in Prison - Why Writing Matters

On this episode, we bring you a story by Ken Guidroz. Ken’s story shows us the importance of writing and sharing stories, especially with people we either don’t understand or who don’t understand us. Ken says writing to his son in prison ignited an honest exchange he never would have had without writing. This exchange changed their relationship forever.

Ken Guidroz served in the ministry, leading the Santa Clarita Church of Christ and designs specialty retirement plans for companies. He is the author of Beyond the 401(k): How Financial Advisors Can Grow Their Businesses with Cash Balance Plans And Letters to My Son in Prison: How a Father and Son Found Forgiveness for an Unforgivable Crime. Ken lives in Santa Clarita, California with his wife. You can find him on Instagram, at his website, or on Substack at Life, Faith, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. You can also sign up for Second Draft, which meets Thursdays 12-1 ET. This group is for writers looking for feedback on a more polished draft for publication. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

Transcript

Allison Langer  0:14  
I'm Allison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz  0:16  
I'm Andrea Askowitz and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts, parts and art. By heart, we mean the truth that in a story, by art we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, Writing Class where we tell the truth, it's where we work out our shit. There is no place in the world like Writing Class that we want to bring you in.

Allison Langer  0:47  
Okay, today on our show, we are bringing you a story by Ken Guidroz. I cannot wait for you guys to hear the story and hear all about Ken and everything great he's doing so, but we felt this was a really important story, because it involves the importance of writing and why everyone needs to write. You'll hear why from Ken himself. Ken says writing to his son in prison ignited an honest exchange he would never have had without writing. All right, back with Ken story after the break.

Andrea Askowitz  1:24  
We're back. This is Andrea Askowitz and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Ken Guidroz reading his story, Letters To My Son In Prison. 

Ken Guidroz  1:52  
At first, the letters to my son in prison were mostly updates on the weather and the family. But I quickly grew tired of the mundane. Over the months as drugs seeped out of his system and sobriety seeped in, my son Lucas revealed that the wreck his life had become he got despondent and struggled to see any future for himself. He was 28. Then one day he called and told me about a guy he'd met in the prison hallway named Preacher Man. He just stopped Lucas the day before and said, 'Hey, you don't look like you belong in here. Would you do?' 'Dad, you don't ask that', Lucas said. But this dude, he didn't care. He actually expected me to answer him. Lucas finally told him he'd killed a man in a car accident when he was high on heroin. Preacher Man said, 'Well, David killed a man too. 'David?' 'Yeah. David in the Bible'. I was shocked to hear Lucas even mentioned the Bible. Even though I'd raised him going to church and teaching him Bible stories, Lucas never showed much interest in religion. I knew that David had killed a man, but it had been years since I'd read the story. I was avoiding the Bible at that point in my life. Anytime I opened it, a flood of bad memories reminded me of what a failure I'd been as a father and as a man of faith. At the time, it wasn't just Lucas who was a mess, but also my other two sons. One was also lost in opioids. The other had been arrested for possession with intent to sell. My confidence and faith was on life support. After I hung up from Lucas, I walked to my bookshelf, wiped a thick coat of dust off my Bible and reread the David story. I got lost in the tale of lust, sex, pregnancy, lying, scheming, betrayal, and murder. It was better than a Stephen King novel. And the story was perfect for Lucas. A man hit the bottom but still recovered his life. So I wrote to Lucas about David. I went on for 30 pages, because every detail of his story seem to relate to Lucas. I ended the letter with the poem David wrote to God, 'My mistake is always before me. Create in me a pure heart, oh, God. My sacrifice is a broken spirit, a broken heart'. The next morning I reread it and worried, have I overdone it? Is this just too direct? I didn't care. I I was desperate to connect with a son who was desperate. A week later he wrote me this. 'Man, that letter you wrote on David was awesome. At first I couldn't believe how long it was. Pops, you sure can write a lot of words haha. I took it onto my cot, got comfortable, tried to shut out all the incessant yapping around me and read the entire thing from beginning to end. I could not put it down. I mean, seriously, to think that that was David and that was in the Bible. It just blew my mind. And, you know, I saw myself in David, his rationalizing, his blindness, his stupidity, his love, or should I say, lust for women. I can relate to all those things, but his recovery now that was awesome'. This letter started two years of feverish letter writing between us. Lucas went on to devour books by Hemingway, Dostoevsky and CS Lewis. He'd write me six and seven page letters about how his mind was changing, and how he saw the world differently and how he didn't want to be the man he used to be. On the two year anniversary of the accident, he wrote the widow of the victim a five page, elegant, heart wrenching apology. He had no way of knowing if she ever got it, but in a way, it didn't really matter. He'd written what he needed to write, if not for her, than for him, or maybe just for God. Around that time, he wrote me a haunting, beautifully written letter, contrasting his daily life with mine. I cried when I got it. Letters became for him and for me, an outlet, a release a way to say things we'd never say in person. I wrote him. 'Look, I know we've been through 10 years of hell together. But maybe now things can be different. Maybe this whole crazy experience you've been through and this letter writing mania we've been on can be the start of something new for us. And can I go out on a limb here? Maybe we can even have something amazing. Something few fathers and sons ever have. Maybe we can say things to each other that fathers and sons never say'. The next letter, and the next and every letter I got proved I was right. Lucas got vulnerable with me. He bore his soul every time. I got this letter the night he finished the book Crime and Punishment. 'Dad I had tears streaming down my face when I finished the book. I turned off my reading light, closed the book and laid it on my chest. It was dead silent. Everyone was asleep. And I just stared at the ceiling thinking about my life. Like the character in the book, I was being raised back to life. I was going through a gradual transition from one world to another. It was such a strange feeling to be completely overwhelmed, but completely content. I'm at peace with where I am, with who I am, with why I'm here and what my life is becoming'. When Lucas walked through our front door on the day of his release, he had a large plastic garbage bag slung over his shoulder. After we hugged I asked, 'what's in the bag?'. He looked at me with a smile and said those are my letters. And he clutched the bag.

Allison Langer  9:29  
I've heard this story. I've read the book. Ken reached out to me because we met ages ago, like years ago before just when he started to write I think and reached out what I work on a couple of stories with him and I think this was one of them. And then he ended up taking this story and turning it into a book and working with a company and I thought it was really important that he write an essay about it to air on the podcast because I'm obsessed with the criminal justice system, but not just that, I want people to see people who screw up and sort of reclaim their life. And what does it do to the people around them, the families, and we often don't get stories from the family members of people who are incarcerated. And I think it's just a really interesting thing. In this situation, it ended up being a positive thing. I mean, obviously, it didn't start that way, when you know, since I've read the book, I know the story, but like having your son arrested and in kill somebody, and like, the whole thing is devastating and he writes about that really well. But what happened afterwards to them is really beautiful. They were able to reconnect through words and letters and and in the power of writing. So that's what I thought would be really cool for our listeners to hear.

Andrea Askowitz  10:46  
Yeah, cool. I want to talk about the things that I think this narrator did really well and one of them is it's very clear to me or maybe because I've read it a bunch of times within this reading, it's so clear to me what this story is about. And the way the narrator, he kind of lays it down right from the very beginning. He even starts with talking about the letters that he wrote to his son at the very beginning, were about the weather, and he was tired of the mundane. So the story starts with the mundane and then it ends up being about the very deep, emotional, real things this father and son share. And he says there's a line in the story. That is like in a line, what is this story about, 'letters became a release a way to say things we'd never say in person'. They it's like, sometimes it's like, wait, what's the story about? Well, in this case, the narrator wrote it in a line. It's about what happened while my son was in jail, or in prison. And what happened was that we wrote letters to each other that enabled us to say things we would never say, if we were just speaking, it's there. So that's so cool. I thought that was really good. I thought it was really excellent to hear exactly what the son did. And he also just told us, and he told us in a really interesting way, because there was a Preacher Man was like, 'What are you doing in here?' And then so his son had to tell him, he killed a man in a car accident, while high on cocaine, heroin actually. This theater admitted a lot of things. He also admitted to the next awesome thing that I thought he did, which was get really vulnerable with us, he admitted how he said that his faith and his confidence, I think we're on life support, because all three of his sons are going through so much. So we just felt like, shit, dad. And I appreciated that he just said it. So that was cool.

Allison Langer  12:48  
Yeah, very cool. That's, that's the one of the hardest things. I mean, we talk about this all the time. Like, sometimes the kids want to come clean, but then the parents can't handle what that looks like.

Andrea Askowitz  13:00  
Means about them. What it means about us. 

Allison Langer  13:03  
Exactly. 

Andrea Askowitz  13:03  
Hi, I'm a mom. Right. 

Allison Langer  13:05  
Yeah. So it's not easy. And he did it really well, yeah.

Andrea Askowitz  13:10  
He did, he did. And that led into his relationship with God. So we know that the narrator, he liked dusted off his Bible, we know that he was a man of faith, but that his faith was lacking for a bit. But then he brings in Bible stories, and then so does his son. And then when his son wrote the letter to the woman whose husband died, he wrote the letter for himself or maybe for God. That was sort of a callback, but it was it just showed me who these people were and I appreciated that, I just understood them. And I understood that effort.

Allison Langer  13:50  
When I first saw this essay, way, way, way back then when before the book and everything, I was like oh God, I don't know about all this God stuff. It's really distracting for me, but I will tell you that now in the book, he explains exactly why there was a gap for him in the faith challenged and all that kind of stuff, and why he sort of removed himself from the church. And it's, it's really interesting and, and although his situation is very specific, I feel that I've heard from so many people in Writing Class, how they've sort of disengaged from the church based on something that happened in the church that they expected and, and so I think people will really relate to that. And in the story, the situation is also something maybe many people, most people have not had to deal with a child who ends up going to prison for killing somebody. However, we all as parents suffered disappointments in ourselves and in our children. And because of our parenting, the decisions we make the career paths we take and I just find it super, super universal.

Andrea Askowitz  14:59  
I want to kind of make that point but in an in the opposite way, which is I am not a religious person. But I totally can understand even though I'm not I don't have this experience, I can understand questioning, hardcore, when everything is not going your way, in a really major way. So I can understand that what this narrator did, like he questioned God, and not because of anything that happened within the church, but what was happening in his life outside. And that to me just felt also strangely universal. Like, don't we say this all the time? Like the specific is universal, the more specific the more universal. And even though that was more specific in a way that doesn't, doesn't touch me my experience, I still understood it. I did. I understood questioning everything. 

Allison Langer  15:43  
I want to also talk about the writing. He uses really great dialogue, I find. Like we get you know, his conversations also involve conversations over the phone sometimes. Or in a letter, we get them both. So we feel like we're on the phone or receiving these letters. I just thought that's really good. Some people tell tell, tell, tell, tell, but by sharing the dialogue, and the passages and portions of the letters and stuff like that, I felt really included, did you?

Andrea Askowitz  16:11  
Yeah, and dialog is a moment where it's seen. So in the parlance of Writing Class, that's a show. That's a moment of showing, those dialogues are showing because it's bringing the scene to life. Good, good job on, good job, Ken.

Allison Langer  16:29  
And especially bringing in his son's letters. I just loved getting the voice of the son, because how else are we really going to get to know the son and who he really is? Through his voice instead of just the dads. 

Andrea Askowitz  16:45  
Oh, cool. Yeah, I thought that was cool. Now, I want to know how long the book is because the son was like, you sure can write a lot of words, Pops.

Allison Langer  16:55  
He had a good editor. It wasn't me. It was it was a it was a company, but he had a great editor. This book was organized so well. It was visually really cool. It you know, and I just read the manuscript that came to me, so I didn't actually get a hard copy.

Andrea Askowitz  17:13  
But wait, isn't the book coming out in a minute? It's coming out, right. But wait, before we get to that, because I want you to tell us everything about the book, I wanted to say one other thing that I really liked about the story, which was the landing, thought it landed really well. 'What's in the bag?', it's his letters. Like he's carrying these letters. These letters mattered so much to the narrator, son.

Allison Langer  17:34  
That he brought them all home to keep and save and reread and all like that. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's a perfect essay and and sometimes people go on and on, like, I didn't care what happened when he got home, I didn't care what's going on now. That's not what this essay is about. This essay is about communication and how important this reconnection with his dad and with his son meant, well, basically, the reconnection with his dad meant to his son if he brought home all those letters, but it's also clear throughout the entire essay, how important it was for this dad to really reconnect with his son, and I did not feel judgment. I did not feel ridicule, like, this guy was just like, man, you know, my kids screwed up, and, and he's gonna get himself back together like David. And it doesn't mean it's the end, when you hit rock bottom, there's always a way back up and I just think that's a beautiful message for all of us.

Andrea Askowitz  18:27  
Ah, yeah and also, another beautiful message is that writing is that this, this essay is a testament to writing. Because you really can say things in writing, that you might not be able to say out loud. So everybody needs to write. That's what he's saying.  

Allison Langer  18:44  
Yeah, definitely and share, because now it's going to really, I think, just by hearing this story and sharing it with the world, it's going to really help other people who might be going through the same things. And I know that's not the reason to write, but it's a consequence of good writing.

Andrea Askowitz  18:59  
Tell us about his book, and when is it coming out? What's the name of it? How can we get it?

Allison Langer  19:03  
Okay, so you can buy the book anywhere you buy your books, and if you can't find it, just click on our show notes, because we will have links to all of that to his website and a place to buy the book, for sure. You can buy it on his website, which is can kenguidros.com and there'll be all that information on spelling and everything. The launch date is September 6 2023. It was an assistant self publishing by a company named Bublish, B-U-B-L-I-S-H. I don't know them, but he had a great experience so if that's your gig, go for it. Reach out to Ken he'd probably love to hear whatever you have to say he's awesome and I I just am so excited for people to read his book. I loved it like crazy.

Andrea Askowitz  19:49  
Thank you for listening and thank you can Ken Guidros for sharing your story

Writing Class Radio is hosted by me Andrea Askowitz. 

Allison Langer  20:05  
And me, Alison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz  20:07  
Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminsky, Chloe Emond-Lane and Aidan Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Schandler. There's more Writing Class on our website, writingclassradio.com including stories we study editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join Allison on Tuesdays, noon to 1 Eastern or Eduardo Wink Thursdays 8 to 9pm Eastern. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote.

Allison Langer  20:49  
We have a second draft class on Thursdays 12- 1 Eastern Time, Andrea has been teaching it but she's moving her people to a final draft. So we have all these classes listed on our website and there's descriptions of each so if you're interested in classes, just jump on find out what they are find out how if they would work for you, and if they will make your writing better. 

Andrea Askowitz  21:10  
And if you have any questions, you can email either one of us, Andrea at writingclassradio.com. I'll answer your questions as long as you're not annoying. And I do want to say that that second draft has some openings, because I opened up a new class, which is actually full. But anyways, if you are a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist group that needs healing, or just want to help your team write better, we can help check out all our classes on our website, writingclassradio.com. Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Allison Langer  21:56  
There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours? 

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  22:08  
Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

Show Notes Episode 162: Do As I Say Not As I Do

On this episode, you’ll hear a story by our own Allison Langer. You may have read her story in HuffPost, where she was published on Jan 16, 2023. The story ran with this title: People Say I'm A Grief Expert, But When My Friend's Husband Died, I Did Something I Deeply Regret.

Allison Langer is a Miami native with a University of Miami MBA, as well as a writer and single mom to three children, ages 13, 16 and 18. She is a private writing coach, taught memoir writing in prison and has been published in The Washington Post, Mutha Magazine, Scary Mommy, Ravishly, Modern Loss, NextTribe, and HuffPost. Allison’s stories and voice can be heard on Writing Class Radio, a podcast she co-produces and co-hosts that has been downloaded more than 750,000 times. Allison is currently working on a memoir.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. Or Second Draft on Thursday 12-1 ET where students bring in an edited draft for feedback and help getting published. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

Transcript

Allison Langer  0:15  
 I'm Alison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz  0:16  
I'm Andrea Askowitz.

Allison Langer  0:17  
And this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast which is equal parts heart and art. By heart we mean the truth in a story and by art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, Writing Class is where we tell the truth, it's where we work out our shit. There's no place in the world like Writing Class and we want to bring you in.

Andrea Askowitz  0:45  
Today on our show, we bring you a story by our very own Alison Langer. You may have read her story and Huffington Post where she was published on January 16th 2023. On this episode, we're talking about being the biggest asshole in a story, but not to your editor. We're also talking about writing to the why, figuring out why you do what you do. Back with Alison's story after the break, we're back. Here's Alison reading her story. People say I'm a grief expert, but when my friend's husband died, I did something I deeply regret.

Allison Langer  1:38  
When my daughter McClain died 14 years ago, I was dubbed the expert on grief. McClain was 16 months old when she was diagnosed with a congenital heart defect that affected breathing and swallowing. A week before surgery, she choked on a french fry. On October 10th 2008, she died. Since then, I've been the person family and friends consult whenever someone dies. I'm asked what to say to the grieving family and what might help them. At funerals, I nod to the other parents who have lost children. We are expressionless and numb. I listen to the eulogies, remembering my own words and how it felt to be the mother of the guest of honor. I know what they're going through and what lies ahead. When my best friend's husband died, I still managed to screw up. Marshall had a heart attack in his sleep. Morgan woke up to his unusually loud exhalations. When she nudged him. something felt wrong. She yelled to her children. 17 year old Walker started CPR, Kirksey her 18 year old daughter called 911, but Marshall, a 61 year old man who worked out every day was dead. Last week, my girlfriends and I brought dinner to Morgan's. Our small group of friends has known each other ever since high school. We talk regularly and play cards or dominoes every few months. I made gluten free eggplant Rollatini, vegan but with real cheese on half because Morgan likes real cheese. So if he brought a salad with cranberries, arugula and homemade lemon vinegrette. Morgan shared a Cabernet from a winery she and Marshall discovered while traveling around Italy for their 20th anniversary. I thought about Marshall the entire time. His energy hung in the air calm and kind, just like always, but I didn't bring them up. We were at Morgan's for three hours and nobody mentioned Marshall's death. I wanted to appear happy, I didn't want to cry and ruin the mood and yet I knew better. I'd been here. I knew that being the happy friend didn't work for someone newly grieving. I knew it was too hard to hear about others' happiness. The week after McClain's funeral my girlfriend's brought food and wine. I sat at the dining room table, dominoes propped up in front of each person wanting them to leave so I could cry alone. I zoned out, floating above the table wishing I could reverse time and schedule McClain surgery for a week earlier. My friends talked about which preschools were better and who was hosting Thanksgiving dinner. I believe they too thought it was best to be as normal as possible for my sake, but I didn't want to talk about normal things. I wanted to talk about McClain. I wanted to complain about how cranky she was the last time I took her photo. How she just started saying Mama, how pale and tiny she was when I signed the papers to donate her organs. I wanted to tell them I didn't care who got her parts, I wanted them back. As my friends chatted about their kids I wondered why they got to keep theirs and I didn't. I couldn't understand why they were laughing, living life as if nothing had changed. What I know now is that life hadn't changed for them. They'd consoled me on the day they figured I needed consoling the most, but they didn't live with the pain like I did and didn't know what would be lost for me. When the card game was over at Morgan's and she was putting the decks away, I asked how Walker and Kirksey were doing, how she was doing. I've been sorting through the bills, Morgan said, Marshall's mess. That could have been my opening to let her talk about her husband, but before she could finish answering my question, my phone rang and I took the call, kissed everyone goodbye, grabed my empty dish and drove home. A few days later, I ran into Ashley who was also at the dinner. She told me Morgan was hurt because no one wanted to talk about Marshall. Shame swept through my body and settled in my chest. Tears filled my eyes as it pushed against my heart. Ugh, I screwed up, me of all people. I knew better. In the days since I've been trying to understand why I wasn't a better friend. Why didn't I talk about Marshall? Why didn't I do what I knew she needed the most. Maybe it's because I don't want the role of grief expert. That's a role nobody wants and nobody can fill, but that's not it. It hit me in the shower where I do my best thinking. I hadn't mentioned Marshall because each loss bring backs the pain, the numbness, the person missing from my own family. I'm afraid if I let myself feel that pain, it will destroy me all over again. If I could go back a week, I would have let the phone call I took go to voicemail. I would have sat there all night if that's what Morgan wanted. I would have taken my cues from her, which is what you should do with a grieving person, as they should be the one to decide if and when they want to talk, but no matter what I would have made myself available and open. I would have made it clear that I was up for anything she needed. If she wanted to just cry, I'd let her cry. If she wanted to drone on and on about her husband's mess. I would have let her drone. If she wanted to talk I would have asked about the funny things Marshall said during their travels in Italy. Instead of leaving I would have brought him back to life if only for an evening and celebrated the incredible man he was. From what I've experienced grieving people want to talk about their person. Maybe if the settings right and if you're at their house, girlfriend's gathered around drinking wine, their dog looking for a lap where there once was one. The setting is often right. If you're at a March of Dimes fundraiser with a roomful of strangers, you might want to wait until you're in the Uber home. But I suggest a time when your friend isn't wearing a full face of makeup. If you're unsure whether your friend wants to talk, listen or be alone, pay attention to the signs. A yawn, a stare or silence could mean it's time for you to leave. Do not say goodbye while on your phone. The call may seem like a slight to your hosts Do not leave with a sad, pathetic look on your face ― eyebrows squinched together, head tilted, mouth frowny. Nobody feels comforted by that look. Nobody. When it’s time, instead of giving in to the fear and hiding your emotions, show your friend you are missing him too. It’s OK to cry.    You don’t have to have the right words ― there are no right words. You’re not going to be able to make it all better. It probably won’t be better for a long, long time. Maybe never. But you can be there and sometimes ― often ― that is enough. And you can make it clear that you will be there, that you’re just a phone call or a text away, if they need you. Check on them ― and not just for the few days or week after their loved one has passed. Grief sticks around, usually much longer than we talk about. Invite them to things. Be OK if they say no. But keep asking.    This is what I wish people had done for me after I lost my child. This is what I wish I’d done for my friend. But we’re only human, and grief is a tricky, difficult thing. Even those of us who know it well can end up doing something that feels wrong. And every death is different. Every person left behind is different. But the one thing that is always the same is that we can make the offer to be there, however that looks or feels for that grieving person, and that will be more than enough ― it’ll be a gift.

Andrea Askowitz  9:15  
Wow. One thing that I think this story does so so well is asking the narrator, you asked yourself why. Why did I act like that? And then in the exploration of why it sort of like it goes on one level. It's like, why'd I do that? Because I didn't want to ruin the mood. Like I didn't want to cry. But then while the narrator was in the shower, she realized the real real why and that was she didn't want to dredge up all this pain again for herself and that is to me what a story should do. Its figures out why I acted the way I acted and so often it's why did I act like an asshole and what I love so much Allison, I love this so much about your writing all the time, but what I, in this case, I just love that, like the narrator is not afraid to just like, admit that she made this really big mistake. The ending of this story is also it's a cautionary tale. And the narrator's able to tell me, the reader what to do, because she's lived it like she starts from the very beginning and tells us that she is a grief expert. She doesn't want to be a grief expert, but she is and she proves that she is because she tells us that her daughter died. And then she tells us that she knows exactly how it feels for anyone who loses someone like she's like making eye contact with people at other funerals and like knowing exactly how they're feeling like I trust that this narrator knows what is going on for people when someone dies. Then she shows us how close she is with her friend with the details of like the salad and the vegan and just like hanging out, I thought that was really well done because we know what they're like together. She also bounced back and forth between her friends hanging out when her daughter died and then her friends hanging out when her friend's husband died. So we have like these two parallel scenes going on, which I thought was brilliantly done. So she's at her friend's house after her friend's husband died and she didn't bring him up for three hours. Like she recognizes what she did. Then she leaves then she wishes she could do it again. Because she wishes she could go back and not take the phone call that she took right after there was a moment where her friend was about to talk about him. She just really wishes that she didn't walk away, but we understand why she did. Because she has been through it herself. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing.

Allison Langer  12:07  
Thank you. I will say that when I sent it in to the Huffington Post, and I feel like I sent it- 

Andrea Askowitz  12:15  
I think it's Noah Mickelson. Okay, go ahead. 

Allison Langer  12:17  
Oh, yeah, I sent it to him first. Yeah, cuz I was like, this seems like something he might like. And I want it to be published in the Huffington Post. I really wanted that. So when I sent it, he's so amazing. Like, within minutes, he was like, love it, add 300 words at the end. Tell me why. Tell me tell me what you wish you had done differently. So I quickly banged it out and then he even wanted more and that's not really necessarily our structure, at Writing Class Radio, we don't tend to give advice. We don't really share cautionary tales. 

Andrea Askowitz  12:48  
It's not our style. It's not our style. 

Allison Langer  12:50  
Yeah. But I really liked it so much more. And what was also interesting, I thought, I mean, I'm looking at it now and I was like, Ah, I could cut I could cut like you and I just love to cut. What's interesting is that so many people responded to this and not just because Morgan has, like 500 people on her Christmas list and is such a good friend to everyone, but is because I think this story resonates with a lot of people, especially as we're getting up there and age and people are dying. Our friends families are you know, and how do we be there for somebody and no one really has it down.

Andrea Askowitz  13:26  
No one knows what to do, but you laid it out. No one knows what to do when someone dies. And you really told us in this story, you told us you were like take basically the main takeaway that I have, if I'm in this position where someone I love loses someone they love, is I'm going to wait for their cues. I'm going to be like, totally observant it to see if they want to talk about whoever they lost. And if they do, I'm going to try my best to be there.

Allison Langer  13:55  
If I have to say one word it show up. Just show up. People are like I don't know what to say, I don't know what to do, just show up. Just be there, that's it,. And then the rest of the stuff, then you listen, you know, and then like you say you wait for the cues, but I mean, there's so many times like, people get bad news, just show up. Just do it. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it shows that person that you care. And you know, we're there, but I did this shit thing when I was there. So you show up and then you try to listen. So I just I don't know.

Andrea Askowitz  14:29  
Well, you said it twice in the piece where you said take the cues, but you said differently a little while later, but it was the same idea. It's just like wait, wait to see if it's a good time and it probably is a good time. 

Allison Langer  14:43  
Yeah. Yeah. 

Andrea Askowitz  14:45  
I did think the ending was a little too long. So I think that it is the style of Huffington Post and I do think that I love being told exactly how to handle this situation, but I did also that was the one thing I noticed, and maybe it's just a style thing. I mean, the whole story is so well structured and so beautiful and sad and oh.

Allison Langer  15:10  
Well, what I think is really funny is that when Noah sent it back, and he's like, 'okay, this is going in, if you don't like it, that's fine. We don't have to run'. But basically, there was like, it's my way, or you can leave and he was very nice about it, but it's like, these editors just like us. Like when we're editing something, it's like, yes, you can have your opinion, but if we don't like it, it's out. So keep your opinion, if you want, but that's not going to work for me. So I was like, I don't care like if it has a couple extra sentences I would normally take out I couldn't care less. Whatever works. 

Andrea Askowitz  15:42  
Well, you have grown, you have grown a lot as a writer. This is this is new.

Allison Langer  15:50  
He didn't cut anything out. He just added so I'm cool with that. 

Andrea Askowitz  15:54  
Oh I dont know I think you're cool, you would have been cool if he cut stuff too. You've learned that this is one way of telling this story. There are a million ways to tell the story, like you're not precious anymore. And so you've become not an asshole to your editor. It's really, it's really lovely. Being being your editor, sometimes, it is. It's good. You've evolved.

Allison Langer  16:18  
Now when you send me edits, I still cut you out. I still take a walk around the block. Actually, sometimes I don't take a, I don't need the walk around the block anymore, I just read it and I got alright. She might be right here. And I just so yeah, you've taken a few steps out of my tracker. 

Andrea Askowitz  16:38  
Yay. 

Allison Langer  16:39  
But I think it's hard to earn trust, I do. Some of these publications obviously, if you're trying to get in, you got to trust them. Or you don't apply or you don't go or whatever, but like any random person is it's hard to trust somebody else when you have ideas of what you think something should be. And the bottom line is maybe just see what somebody's done and what you like, and if you like their style, then you you you submit to them, but if you don't, don't waste their time.

Andrea Askowitz  17:06  
Thank you, Alison, for writing and sharing this story. And thank you for listening.

So Writing Class Radio is hosted by me Andrea Askowitz. 

Allison Langer  17:25  
And me Alison Langer. 

Andrea Askowitz  17:27  
Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminsky, Chloe Emond-Lane and Aidan Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler. There's more Writing Class  on our website, including stories we study editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. If you want to write with us every week, you can join our first draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join Allison on Tuesdays noon to one Eastern and or Thursdays with Eduardo Wink, eight to nine pm Eastern. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you're a business owner, community activist groups that needs healing entrepreneur, or anyone who just wants to help their team write better. Check out all the classes we offer on writingclass radio.com. Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to writingclass radio.com. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Allison Langer  18:41  
There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story, what's yours? 

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  18:55  
Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

Show Notes Episode 161: You Look Great BECAUSE You’ve Aged

On this episode, we bring you a story by our own Andrea Askowitz. A version of this essay was published April 2023 on CNN and titled What Justine Bateman Gets Exactly Right About Beauty. You’ll hear tips on how to bring in outside evidence for a more effective opinion piece and how to use the news stories, popular in the media, to create a personal essay.

Andrea Askowitz has been published in The New York Times, Salon, The Rumpus, Huffington Post, Glamour, AEON, The Writer, Manifest-Station, Mutha, Washington Post, CNN, NPR, PBS, and the anthologies, Looking Queer, All that Glitters, and forthcoming, Stained: An Anthology of Writing About Menstruation. She is the author of the memoir My Miserable, Lonely, Lesbian Pregnancy and the Editor of Badass: True Stories, The Double Album. Andrea is the Executive Producer and Host of Writing Class Radio, a podcast that airs true, personal stories and gives tips on how to write stories. 

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. Or Second Draft on Thursday 12-1 ET where students bring in an edited draft for feedback and help getting published. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Transcript

Allison Langer  0:00  
I'm Alison Langer. 

Andrea Askowitz  0:16  
I'm Andrea Askowitz and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which has equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, writing class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shit. There's no place in the world like writing class and we want to bring you in. 

Allison Langer  0:45  
Today on our show, we bring you a story by our very own delightful, intelligent -

Andrea Askowitz  0:53  
Go on. 

Allison Langer  0:53  
Very productive, Andrea Askowitz. A version of this story was published in April of this year 2023 on CNN. We're going to talk about how to bring in outside evidence, you know, like using, like some other information other than what's in our own brains about our own selves, like actual research and we'll also talk about using the news to create a story. 

Andrea Askowitz  1:19  
And I'll just say that this was really hard for me, because the best research I ever do is just like reading back in my own journals. 

Allison Langer  1:25  
Well, that's kind of more than what I do. So you're a step ahead of me. 

Andrea Askowitz  1:29  
You don't even read back on your own journals? 

Allison Langer  1:31  
No. Why? Old news by by moving forward, I guess unless, like, I'm pressed to have to read something for class or, you know, bring something to a retreat that I'm like, 'Oh, God, what do I have?' Because please don't make me dig into my brain and start all over. 

Andrea Askowitz  1:45  
Really? 

Allison Langer  1:46  
Yeah. 

Andrea Askowitz  1:46  
Like sometimes when I'm looking at a story, I consult my old journals to see how I felt, you don't, do that? 

Allison Langer  1:51  
I haven't. 

Andrea Askowitz  1:52  
Wow.

Allison Langer  1:54  
No. No and I think it's because if it's been five years, 10 years, I'm looking at it from a different perspective. So actually, maybe that's why you do do it. Because then you can go back to the moment things like the shit hit the fan. And then you can see wow, this is how I've evolved. I can look back on it with the perspective. So actually, okay, maybe you're right. Maybe it's good idea. All right back with Andrea's story. After the break. We're back. This is Alison Langer, and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Andrea Askowitz reading her story, titled by CNN. It's called 'What Justine Bateman Gets Exactly Right About Beauty'. Or we can use Andrea's title which is 'You Look Great Because You've Aged'. I can see why CNN gets the big bucks.

Alright, Andrea hit it.

Andrea Askowitz  2:51  
Justine Bateman, a star whose age I’m approaching, played Mallory Keaton on “Family Ties” in the 1980s as a teenager. In her early 40s, she says, she typed her name into Google for research, and the search engine auto-populated “looks old.”   Bateman, now 57, said she was incredulous. “I couldn’t see what they were talking about,” she recently told “60 Minutes Australia,” adding that the way her face has changed represents authority.   She said she likes seeing herself as a different person than the teen she played on “Family Ties.”   But Bateman didn’t come to terms with the public’s negative perception of her aging face overnight.   I recently searched my own name online. No one is out there calling me old, but not because I don’t look old. At 54, I do. Apparently, for too many in American society, that’s not OK.   At a party recently, I ran into a friend I knew in college. Thirty-five years ago, she was adorable — full cheeks and a giant smile. I had full cheeks back then, too.   “You look great,” my friend said to me. “You haven’t aged.”   I took it in. I said thank you and felt good for a second.   But here’s the thing: I have aged. Thirty-five years. I weigh about the same as I did in college, but that weight is distributed differently now. I no longer have the baby-fat cheeks. My smile lines never go away. My hair, once black, is now more gray than black. My hair used to curl in perfect ringlets. Now, it’s a frayed mop. Everyone — and I mean everyone I know or even meet once — is quick to suggest a hair product.  My mom has loosened up on her hair-dye campaign because she knows it’s a lost cause. She went hard about five years ago, when I was nearing 50. Back then she thought I’d want to try to stay young-looking. She said, “Dye that mop. You look like an aging hippie.”  The truth is, I look older since the last time my friend and I saw each other. The other truth is, I look better, at least to me.   I never felt beautiful growing up. I felt bulky and awkward in my clothes. I relied on other charms. I feel cheated because now that I feel beautiful, most people can’t see how beautiful I am. They can only see my age. I’m not just talking about the beauty that comes with confidence. Frankly, I look better physically. Now, I like looking like an aging hippie, and tight jeans and a T-shirt just fit.  My friend looks better now, too. She has the same big smile and friendly demeanor, but there is something about her face that I like more. I didn’t stare. I don’t know exactly what about her face is more pleasing, but it is.  What wasn’t pleasing to me is what happened in February after Madonna appeared at the 2023 Grammy Awards. The internet went crazy over the work Madonna had done to her face. Madonna tried to defend her position in an Instagram post, writing, “I am happy to do the trailblazing so that all the women behind me can have an easier time in the years to come.”   I consider Madonna one of the most influential leaders of my generation, a cohort including my friend — and Bateman.       When Madonna’s book “Sex” was published in 1992, I was 24. I had just come out as a lesbian. The book was scandalous — pictures of Madonna fully naked, explicit sex shots, homosexuality across the pages. Whatever you thought about the book then, Madonna changed cultural perceptions of sex and all kinds of sexual expression. She helped paved the way for queer people, including me.   Madonna clearly sees herself in a leadership role, too. Madonna’s fake face, though, is bad leadership.  But I don’t expect Madonna to carry the burden of influencing society’s views on age and beauty alone.   During her acceptance speech at the 95th Academy Awards in March, Oscar best actress winner Michelle Yeoh, 60, said, “Ladies, don’t let anybody tell you you are ever past your prime.”  And best supporting actress winner Jamie Lee Curtis, 64, called herself “an old lady” in an E! News interview on the red carpet ahead of the Oscars event. She said her goal in life was simply to say, “Relax, you are enough.”  Bateman also told “60 Minutes Australia” she wanted women to stop being consumed with how they look and to get out there and live their lives. “Forget about your face,” she said.      Attitudes are changing because of Hollywood stars like Yeoh, Curtis and Bateman. But we non-celebrities also play a part, too.   If we can’t stop talking about looks altogether, let’s at least stop saying, “You look great — you haven’t aged.”   I tried a similar approach with my friend at the party — something radical. “You look great because you’ve aged,” I told her.   And like that, we changed the dynamic around aging, at least in that moment. Because she agreed with me.    

Allison Langer  8:14  
This Narrator really does walk the walk I'm sure I'm one of those people who have said dye that mop and a suggested products and all that kind of stuff, but this narrator doesn't care. She's really happy with who she is and it's really nice. It's really nice to be around and I'll tell you why also, is because when you're around somebody who's happy with themselves, they're not judging you. But when you're around somebody with the Botox and the fake everything, it's just like, 'Oh, God, what are they thinking of me?' If I don't have all that, and so it's difficult. It's difficult to associate all the time with with people who are trying so hard to grasp on to their their youth. So it's if more more people were like this narrator then more of us would be okay with how we look. So okay, that's not about the writing that's about the story. What we love to do is talk about the writing. This narrator did a perfect job of bringing in the news and it's examples and all that kind of stuff. So and very great research. So I just kind of want to ask her like, well, what went into all that research? And how did it come about? And I want to learn more about the process. 

Andrea Askowitz  9:27  
When I see someone who has worked on on their face or something or someone who's like really trying to fight against age. I don't think 'oh are they judging me?' But I do judge them. I do. It's not nice. I do. I mean, I wondered though, I wanted to ask you if the way that I described Madonna in this story, did you understand? Like, I wonder if if someone who didn't see the whole like I just saw tons of pictures of her in the news and and the on Instagram. 

Allison Langer  9:59  
I haven't seen her face. I haven't Googled her or anything, not even through this piece and seeing it and looking at it and all that kind of stuff. I already know. 

Andrea Askowitz  10:08  
So did you get a sense of what she looked like? 

Allison Langer  10:10  
We live in Miami. We already see these people everywhere. It's like overdone and I without even seeing it I know how she's fucked herself up. 

Andrea Askowitz  10:19  
Okay. Because I wondered if that came through. For someone who maybe doesn't live in Miami or didn't look didn't like research what Madonna's looking like or didn't see her in the news. But anyway, I guess it's not important. Basically, she had a lot of work done on her face. But you asked me about the process. I want to tell you two things about the process of getting the story published in CNN. When Madonna first showed her face, I was so like, Oh my God and I wrote a story just about Madonna. And I sent the story to an editor at CNN Katya Header. And I took a few days like because it takes me a while to write a story. Like some people can write a story like, overnight, but I probably it probably took me three days. And Katya read the story, she liked it in the morning when I sent it to her she was like I really like the story, but then a few hours later, she was like it's too late for this story. So I missed the news cycle. If something happens in the news that touches you personally, you have to jump on it like that day or the next day. So three days was too many days. So then what happen is Justine Bateman came out she spoke to 60 Minutes Australia about her own like that this whole part that I talked about about the aging. And Katya header emailed me, the editor from CNN was like, 'Listen, this idea is coming back around in the news, maybe you could add stuff to it, use some of your Madonna material and talk about yourself and write a story around the Justine Bateman moment', which was the coolest thing. 

Allison Langer  12:00  
Yeah, I want to jump in because I just want to tell our listeners that this request came in while we were sitting at lunch, on the way from Sedona back to Flagstaff when we were teaching the scientists how to write their stories and this and that and we drove Andrea jumped in the back of the van and- 

Andrea Askowitz  12:22  
Wait weren't we like at the Grand Canyon? 

Allison Langer  12:24  
Because I remember at that one restaurant, you're like, 'Oh, I gotta sit off to the side. And I've got to start this thing.' So we're on a road trip and then we got to Sedona and you and I sat in in a coffee shop going over this and rereading it and putting in stuff and editing it and before you push send. 

Andrea Askowitz  12:41  
Right because I knew I had one day to turn it around. I knew that the news was that minute, I had to watch 60 Minutes Australia, Justine Bateman, she she also wrote in now I can't remember, but there was another article about her where she was quoted. I had to do the research very quickly and turn it around very, very quickly. It was exciting and scary. 

Allison Langer  13:03  
But what's really cool is that the first rejection turned into an acceptance. So you know, it's just great to hear, I'm sure for people out there who have getting rejected. 

Andrea Askowitz  13:12  
Writing is a long game. It's like you really have to make connections with editors, you have to pitch a lot, you get rejected a lot. But sometimes an editor will remember you and sometimes they'll remember you and then and then reach out to you that's so rare that I think it's the first time it's ever happened. But I can now reach out to her again. So now we have a connection. Y

Allison Langer  13:33  
yeah, no, it's really cool. And your hard assworker. I would have been like I'm on vacation. You know. But I remember you're like should I try to do this? Should I try to do this and your wife Vicki and I were like, 'yes, just do it. Just do it.' 

Andrea Askowitz  13:48  
I mean, I do have something to say about aging and beauty. I do, I've written about it in other places, too. When I turned 50 I wrote a story and glamour about how I think I look better than ever. So this is like a recurring theme for me. Did you see the Barbie movie? 

Allison Langer  14:04  
No, did you? 

Andrea Askowitz  14:05  
I really liked the Barbie movie, but the one one, I have two problems with it, but one of the problems is they don't contradict the idea of traditional beauty enough, not for me. And I was having this conversation with my wife and Tashi, who's my daughter who's 19 and Tashi has a really interesting experience with beauty because she's young and fucking gorgeous. And it kind of pisses her off. That that's the thing people notice about her first and Vicki said something really smart, which was, you know, we look to art, we look to music, like we as a people were drawn to what's beautiful. And that kind of made me think a little bit differently about I just I think that beauty is is wonderful, but we have to what I think we have to do is see beauty in different ways, especially on women at different ages.

Allison Langer  15:00  
Yeah, I don't have anything to say about Barbie. I've heard I've only heard a critique from two people, one, my son who hated it, they're men, and another man who was like, I didn't like it. So I didn't get into it too much. But my daughter saw it last night, but I haven't talked to her about it. 

Andrea Askowitz  15:15  
Well, it was really fun. And beauty was one of the themes. So that's why I mentioned it. 

Allison Langer  15:20  
Can you maybe give us all a little bit of insight of how you came to the fact of that you're aging and you're feeling more beautiful? Why is that you think? 

Andrea Askowitz  15:28  
I mean, what I've said in the piece is that I really didn't feel that pretty as a high school and college kid. Like, I felt bulky, like, I wasn't the stereotypical beauty. You know, I'm muscular. I'm like, I think I'm cute. Like, I think my face is okay. I do. I mean, it's okay, I don't think I'm dropped dead gorgeous. 

Like,

Allison Langer  15:51  
I think there's something to be said for that, like losing beauty has to be harder than never having felt beautiful, right. So, I mean, I was kind of cute in high school. 

Andrea Askowitz  16:04  
And you're kind of cute now. 

Allison Langer  16:06  
If you compare, which we should never, never, never do, then I don't feel so much. But I'm doing all the things I'm dyeing my hair. In fact, I'm going to get a blow dryer tomorrow, just because I want to look cute for New York. And, you know, I don't know, but at the end of the day, it's, it's for me, I just want to feel pretty. And I think that's important for everybody. So no matter what people do, in my opinion, if it makes them feel beautiful, if it's writing, if it's playing pickleball if it's doing your hair, you know, getting some Botox, I'm fine with it. I know that you don't necessarily feel that way. But I just want people just feel good and that's it. But please don't overdo it. 

Andrea Askowitz  16:45  
I want people to feel good, too. I just it makes me feel sad when someone has to kind of mutilate their face and spend money and that makes me feel sad if they feel like they have to do that. And I actually also think it brings down it brings down our sisters, and that's why I'm committed to being as natural as possible. 

Allison Langer  17:07  
Amen. 

Andrea Askowitz  17:08  
But I'll try not to judge though I can't say I don't, I do.

Allison Langer  17:14  
Well, thank you guys for listening and thank you, Andrea, for sharing your story and your opinions. Always a good thing. We love that here at Writing Class Radio. 

Andrea Askowitz  17:22  
Well, this was an opinion piece. 

Allison Langer  17:24  
Exactly. Bam.

Andrea Askowitz  17:32  
So

Allison Langer  17:35  
Writing Class Radio is hosted by me, Allison Langer. 

Andrea Askowitz  17:39  
And me Andrea Askowitz. 

Allison Langer  17:41  
Audio production is by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminsky, Chloe Emond-Lane and Aidan Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shambler. There's more Writing Class on our website writingclassradio.com, including stories we study editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our community by following us on Patreon and if you want to write with us every week, we hope you do you can join our first draft weekly writers group. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12 to 1pm, Eastern Time and or Eduardo Wink, Thursdays 8 to 9pm, Eastern Time. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you're a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist, and group that needs healing and want to help your team write better, we can help. Check out all the classes we offer on our website writingclassradio.com Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday. 

Andrea Askowitz  18:51  
There is no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  19:03  
Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

Show Notes Episode 160: Cliches Saved My Life

Today on our show, we bring you a story by student Emily Henderson. The story is called Cliches Saved My Life.

Emily Henderson has been featured before on Writing Class Radio: Ep 144: When Is a Gift More than a Gift? That story is about living through Xmas after the death of a child. It’s a beautiful and sad story and one of our best stories ever. Emily can write!

Emily Henderson is a runner and writer living in Santa Barbara CA. She’s written for Scary Mommy, HuffPost, The Santa Barbara Independent, and Writing Class Radio. She is currently writing a memoir about processing the loss of her son while running every street in her city. For more from Emily, you can read her Substack, I'm Really Very Literary.

You can follow her on Instagram @emilykathleenwrites or visit emilykathleenwrites.com.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

A transcript of the show is available here.

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Transcript

Allison Langer  0:14  
I'm Alison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz  0:16  
I'm Andrea Askowitz and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear our true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, writing class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shit. There's no place in the world like writing class, and we want to bring you in.

Allison Langer  0:47  
Today on our show, we bring you a story by student Emily Henderson. She had a story here aired previously on episode 144, When Is A Gift More Than A Gift? That story is about living through Christmas after the death of a child. It is fucking amazing that story. In fact, we've used that story as an example of how to write a story with our other students. And even though it's really, really sad, it is seriously one of the best stories ever written. Emily can fucking right. Emily Henderson is a runner and writer living in Santa Barbara, California. She's written for Scary Mommy, Huff Post, the Santa Barbara Independent and Writing Class Radio. To heal or at least just move again after the death of her son Emily ran every street in Santa Barbara and is working on a memoir currently titled Running In Place. You can follow her on Instagram at Emily Kathleen Writes, or visit Emilykathleenwrites.com and that's Kathleen with a K.

Andrea Askowitz  1:45  
And all those links will be in our show notes on our website and on all the podcast platforms. The story we bring you today is called Cliches Saved My Life. The story is 354 words long. It's short and sweet. See what I did there. We'll be back with Emily Henderson's story after the break.

Allison Langer  2:08  
We're back. This is Alison Langer and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Here's Emily Henderson reading Cliches Saved My Life.

Emily Henderson  2:28  
They say clichés are corny, predictable, and overused, but what if I told you clichés saved my life?  I've been collecting clichés for 15 years, sitting in uncomfortable chairs in church basements with "people who normally would not mix." See, even that's a cliché, but unless you are a friend of Bill W., it will fly high above your head.  In my writing, I often use a cliché as filler to capture an idea in a first draft. Then later, I go back and replace it with more original and specific language. My teacher tells me, you can do better, or I've heard this before when I write things like "heart racing," "end of the world," or "Suddenly, things that happen to other people were now happening to me."  In July of 2019, my 17-month-old son was diagnosed with brain cancer, and by November, he was gone. After my husband and I held his cooling body and said our final goodbyes, and it was time to leave, I pulled out my collection of simple phrases like, "One day at a time," “easy does it,” and "wisdom to know the difference" and repeated them in my head like a metronome. What if the only thing that kept us safe on that drive was because "God was doing for us that which we could not do for ourselves."  What if when I felt like I might not survive the death of my son, that the pain might be too great, I remembered that "feelings are not facts" and "this too shall pass," even if I don't really believe it just yet, what if I could "fake it until I make it?"   What if my pocket full of clichés were the mattress I fell on after falling off a cliff, crashing through a brick wall, and then a glass window?   I'm still just as bruised and broken, but because of my clichés, the alcoholism that is normally doing push-ups in the parking lot waiting for me to slip is nowhere to be found. Scared off by words like, “When Life hands you lemons..." You know the rest.   

Andrea Askowitz  4:35  
This is so sad and so good. It's like 300 and 54 words, I think. And it's, it's like this narrator gives us the like, what? All over like we see all the cliches she's using and the best part is that it's all about why. This is like, why does she use cliches, that's what this story is about and then she totally will kill me when she just drop, there was this moment where she dropped it in. In July of 2019, my 17 month old son was diagnosed with brain cancer and by November, he was gone. So we know why she's living, like using these cliches to save her life. It's such a full story, it's so gorgeous. 

Allison Langer  5:56  
You know, I have not heard or read a story like this, that leaves, trusts the reader enough, or the listener enough to let them figure things out and I loved it so much, just the way she starts with the uncomfortable chairs in the church basement. So we're like, okay, she's in a meeting, or something and then a friend of Bill's. Now, I have no idea what that was when I was young. But I dated somebody, and we were at a party and somebody said, 'oh, are you a friend to bills?' And the guy said, 'yes'. And I was like, 'who the fuck is Bill?' And later, I was told that that's the sign that people ask each other when you're an alcoholic and I just was like, wow, I learned, you know, like, I literally was like, in my 40s. So I don't know I loved it, maybe because like, oh, my God, I know, something I know something I can follow along. Like, I felt really good about that. I don't know if that meant that other people got let left out. But I think that one little thing, if somebody didn't know, they would just assume that they knew each other previously and then later, she does tell us about the alcoholism doing push ups in the parking lot.

Andrea Askowitz  7:16  
Yeah, exactly. So if you didn't know, or you were wondering, there, she brought it back. She gave us more clues about what that meant, without saying it overtly or directly. 

Allison Langer  7:30  
But it just felt like a secret conversation between us before that and it drew me in so much because of that and I don't think we've ever had anything like that on the podcast and quite frankly, I've never read anything like that. So I just think this is super unique and really amazing. I think it would be really cool to keep trying to recreate something like that, you know, to be inspired enough to try to create our own stories

Andrea Askowitz  7:56  
That's a good you're so you're saying listener, hey, radio listener, try to write a story.

Allison Langer  8:02  
I'm saying that but not as geeky. 

Andrea Askowitz  8:04  
I like it like that, hey, radio listener, write a story in this form. So So Allison, how would you like what would what prompt would you give? Like, how would you? 

Allison Langer  8:14  
Well, I think if you're writing about cancer, or you're writing about something that there's a very large group that will understand and even people associated with it will also pick up the clues. So you don't have to bop the person over the head with I had cancer, you could just drop in clues and then later explain what's the story, because she's clearly suffering through something and we're not sure why, then we get a little bit of a clue that she's just lost her child, we still don't know if she was had like this challenge prior to that, but it's not important to this story. It's just that this happened to her and she's dealing with it and the only way she can get through all this shit is by telling herself those cliches one day at a time, and sort of weaves it into the whole lingo of the Alcoholics Anonymous, which I thought was brilliant. So she's got these two things going on that are woven.

Andrea Askowitz  9:12  
So the story is not about cliches. It's about survival, but she's using cliches over and over again, to tell us how she survived and surviving. And she has survived two things, alcoholism, and the death of a child.

Allison Langer  9:31  
Well, those are two things that she's mentioned in the story. We don't know what else she survived. She may have survived many, many things. 

Andrea Askowitz  9:37  
Right true exactly. 

Allison Langer  9:38  
As you get older and older, you almost can't get away from it.

Andrea Askowitz  9:43  
Well, she actually we do know that she's survived many things because she's been a student in our classes. She's actually right now in my in my second draft class and she read this, she brought this in it and second draft is stories that are already pretty much it's not first draft. I've said they're worked on at home. I don't know how long she worked on this, but this is exactly how it came in nd I was like, this is so gorgeous. So different, beautiful. I felt that from the beginning. Just I love this story.

Allison Langer  10:15  
Yeah. And it's what's also interesting I just want to say is that we're always trying to cut cliches out of everybody's writing, including our own. 

Andrea Askowitz  10:24  
My teacher tells me you can do better, or I've heard this before. 

Allison Langer  10:28  
Yeah, but we never know what those cliches actually do for somebody else. So not saying go put them all in your writing, but this particular essay shows us that in order to survive, some of us need to grasp on to and cling to cliches. 

Andrea Askowitz  10:48  
Absolutely. Damn. Holy shit. Don't forget to check the show notes for links to our previous episode, and a link to our social media.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by me Andrea Askowitz. 

Allison Langer  11:11  
And me Alison Langer. 

Andrea Askowitz  11:14  
Audio production by Matt Cundill, Even Surminsky, Chloe Emond-Lane and Aidan Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justina Shandler. There's moreWriting Class at our website writingclassradio.com including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. If you want to write with us every week, you can join our first draft weekly writers groups, you have the option to join Allison on Tuesdays noon to one Eastern and/or Eduarda Wink, eight to 9pm. Eastern. You write to a prompt and share what you wrote. It's the coolest and most awesome community you write you share, be there. To find out how to join go to writingclassradio.com First class is always free. If you're a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist, group that needs healing, or just want to help your team write better we can help. Check out all the classes we offer on our website writingclassradio.com. Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Allison Langer  12:40  
There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other and by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours? 

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  12:52  
Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

Show Notes Episode 159: Rash Decisions

Today on our show, we bring you a story by student Kim Costigan. Kim wrote this story while on our December 2022 writing retreat in Key Largo. This story crushed us and made us love Kim even more. What I want you to listen for is the anecdote at the end. This is one of our favorite ways to end a story. It shows how the narrator has been impacted by the situation in real time. 

Kim has been writing with us for a few years now, and Kim is the perfect example of someone who started green and practiced her way to perfection. Her writing and her vulnerability have come further than almost any student we’ve had. Some people think you can’t teach vulnerability, what we call heart, but we know you can.

Kim Costigan is a writer in Winthrop, pursuing a master’s degree in creative writing at Emerson College. She’s also a star at Karaoke. 

This story may not be appropriate for children or those sensitive to child abuse. 

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Justine Shandler.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

0:00:01 - Speaker 1

If you're one of the many who use this Stitcher app to listen to this show, the app is going away as of August 29th. You'll need to use another podcast app like, say, apple Podcast or Spotify. You may also like Pocketcast or Castro, or maybe even Overcast, or now may be the time you try out a podcasting 2.0 app at newpodcastappscom. And when you get your app set up, don't forget to follow or subscribe to our show.

0:00:42 - Speaker 4

I'm Andrea Askowitz, I'm Allison Langer, and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is Equal Parts Heart and Art. By heart we mean the truth in a story and by art we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shit. There's no place in the world like Writing Class, and we want to bring you in.

0:01:11 - Speaker 3

Today on our show we bring you a story by student Kim Costigan. Kim Costigan is a writer in Winthrop, Massachusetts, pursuing a master's degree in creative writing at Emerson College. She's also a star at Karaoke.

0:01:28 - Speaker 4

Oh my God, the dancing. She was at her retreat in December and like she had the best hip movements and you got to. I think there's a video on the website, so check it out.

0:01:37 - Speaker 3

Can not wait to do Karaoke with Kim Costigan again. Amazing. It's so funny because she seems shy. But you just got to get a little music going and that woman busts open.

0:01:51 - Speaker 4

Oh, loved it. Yeah Well, she's been writing with us for a few years now and I remember when she came to class Do you remember Mm-hmm? She was kind of buttoned up, a little bit reserved, you know, like me, probably writing about her dog. Yeah, she's actually a really good example of somebody who started pretty green and practiced her way to perfection because she was dedicated. Actually, she wrote an email. That really kind of shows what being vulnerable and writing in a group and sharing has done for her.

0:02:26 - Speaker 3

Before you read that, I want to say that I mean some people say that you can't teach vulnerability or like you can't teach the heart Part of what we're talking about when we say heart and heart like getting to the truth, writing your vulnerability but I think Kim Costigan shows us that you actually can with practice and writing and coming to like first draft and just writing to a prompt over and over with a group. You I've seen it so many times. Kim Costigan is a great example of just getting better and better at writing her truth. So, yeah, let's hear the letter. She wrote us a letter.

0:03:05 - Speaker 4

So it actually just came in today, which I swear is like you know. She didn't know we were recording today. I hope Kim doesn't get missy of that. We're sharing it, kim, are you okay if we share it? Thanks, kim, we're about to share it. You and Andrea are my all time favorite teachers and I love meeting the other writers who join your classes. We almost always get each other in ways other people might not. Thank you for always providing a safe space for us to tell our stories. I think it's important work. Remember how fucked up it used to be when everyone hid the truth and pretended everything was okay. You guys are helping to change that. And I wrote back like yeah, I remember. I remember when I was like busy, exhausted, hiding all my shit underneath the facade. It was exhausting.

0:03:52 - Speaker 3

And her story that we're about to hear, that you're gonna hear after the break, really does show a change when people used to pretend everything was okay and a moment when that pretending stopped.

0:04:06 - Speaker 4

So Kim wrote this story wall at our December Writing Retreat in Key Largo and this story literally this story made me love Kim 100 times more. I'd already liked her I didn't really know her that well and then she came to the retreat and shared this and I was like fucking, this girl is like a rock star. So what I want you to listen for when you listen to her story is what happens at the very end and how this story takes you on a journey and then gives you a very satisfying ending. So many times you read a whole story and at the end you're like what? And I'm pissed. I'm super pissed because now somebody's wasted my time that I've invested, and I'm like they didn't do anything for me.

But she really did satisfy me and it shows how the narrator has been impacted by a situation in real time. So she didn't cop out and just kind of throw something out there that maybe didn't even have anything to do with the story. She showed us how the narrator changed, how the people in the story changed, how things changed for her. Anyway, I just want to warn anybody out there who's listening with children that maybe this isn't the best thing to be listening to with your child right now. Maybe listen to it first and then see if it's appropriate Back with Kim Story after the break.

0:05:24 - Speaker 3

Hey, writers, for the last 45 years I've been going to tennis clinics to practice forehand, backhand serves. What does this have to do with writing? Well, practice I've learned in the last 45 years is what it takes to get good at anything, and that's why writing class radio hosts a tips clinic, a writing tips clinic. We do this every second Saturday so that we can all practice going to scene, writing like we speak, omitting these words, everything that it takes to become great, or at least better, at writing. So join us every second Saturday from 12 noon to one Easter time on Zoom. To join, go to writingclassradiocom and click the link for the tips clinic. It's $10 and, believe me, it's a lot cheaper than a tennis clinic. See you there. Hey, listener, there's a new podcast that I love. It's hosted by one of my favorite teachers, amper Petty.

0:06:33 - Speaker 5

It's called Don't Wait to Write is a new podcast to help you write more and worry less, with short weekly episodes with writing exercises and ways to get through. Though why do I suck so bad voices that love to pop up on a blank page? Plus, I talk about how Snooki helped me get into the New York Times. So that's fun. Listen now to Don't Wait to Write.

0:06:56 - Speaker 3

We're back. This is Andrea Askowitz and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Kim Costigan reading her story rash decisions.

0:07:15 - Speaker 2

The rash first appeared just before I turned 12. We were heading to Vermont with plans to share a large ski chalet with another family for a week. My sister and I couldn't wait to wear our new matching pajamas and sleep in bunk beds our first vacation ever. My mom's friend, kate, had borrowed the chalet from her boss, kate, and her husband, larry's children were a little younger than me and my sister. We loved it when the two families got together for barbecues and parties. Larry and Dad spent time together as beer-guzzling drinking buddies. My father the mean drunk, larry the loud drunk.

That summer of 1977 was hot, but we barely noticed the humidity. Because we were so happy to be going on vacation At the chalet, we shared dinners from the grill and floated along the current on inner tubes down a spring-fed river. On the fourth day we decided to go on a hike. Kate's boss told her about a hike that we might all enjoy. He told her at the end of the trail we'd find Shangri-La. He described flowing mountain streams, wild flowers and a canopy of trees.

On the day of the hike, kate recommended I wear long sleeves and pants to keep bugs and burrs off. The temperature rose as we did. We climbed the barely marked rough trail and I regretted wearing such heavy clothes. I was sweating and growing more uncomfortable. We pushed aside overgrown branches and weeds and kept going toward the promised land. I just knew there would be fresh stream water to drink and we would soon be sitting under a shady tree. It couldn't be much longer.

Our odyssey to paradise was near its end when I began to really itch. Any sign of a problem was covered up by my long sleeves. We finally arrived, but all we saw was tall, hay-like yellow grass. We looked around. Was this a shared delusion or had we all been duped? There was no water, no flowers, no paradise, only a dry grassy field, no stand of shade trees. Someone from the group asked if we should keep going, but no one had the energy or desire to walk any further and see if anything was beyond the barren blazing field. We were all sweaty and tired. We headed back down the trail, back to the chalet and back to reality. I was thirsty and hungry. Everyone was.

The further back down the trail we walked, the more I scratched my forearms through my shirt. Finally, at the trailhead, I pushed up my sleeves and saw hundreds of small red bumps all over my arms. I showed my mother and Kate. They looked at my arms and agreed it was probably a heat rash. Calamine lotion would stop the itching. We arrived back at the chalet and I peeled my clothes off, hopping into a cool shower. Both arms and the backs of my legs were covered in itchy bumps and I couldn't help scratching. The more I scratched, the more they seemed to multiply. The rash was growing. My sister and I were experiencing our first real vacation and I didn't want the fun to end. I wasn't going to let a rash stop me from soaking up every moment, but we would have to leave early, not because of my rash, which seemed to be getting worse, but because of what happened on the last night there.

My father and Larry behaved as expected, drinking nightly until they were drunk. Each night became louder and wilder than the one before. On the final evening my father and Larry were drunk and arguing. My father wanted back to the bedroom he and my mother had occupied. He came back into the living room holding something in his hand. Look what I found. He said he was waving a handgun he'd found in the closet. We all screamed Put that away. Larry demanded Suddenly sober. My mother and Kate yelled at him to stop Us. Kids were all reeling out of the room, crying and screaming. My mother begged him to put the gun away. My heart was pounding as I hid around the corner and I craned my neck to try to see what was happening. I was sure I'd hear a gunshot at any moment. Somehow the other adults convinced my father to put the gun back and go to bed.

The next morning Kate told my mother we had to go. The fighting, the gun, the nonstop drug goodness, was too much excitement for even the most hardened of dysfunctional families, even if they were good friends. My mother told us to pack quickly. We were going home. My father, still drunk from the night before, had a can of Schlitz for breakfast. As we packed the car, my mother would have to drive.

As soon as we drove away, they started fighting. Dad began with his usual name calling bitch cunt, stupid fat. As my mother tried to focus on driving down the country road, the fighting escalated as she drove through the nearby city toward the highway back to Massachusetts. Only fists were flying. My father landed the first blow to the side of my mother's head. She tried to fight back keeping one hand on the steering wheel. The car swerved. With each attack my sister and I were screaming in terror from the back, begging my father to stop. My father swung his foot over the driving console and onto my mother's foot, pressing his foot down on top of her foot, which was on the gas pedal. He pressed down hard. The car accelerated faster. It felt like he was trying to kill us all. The car jerked as my mother tried to pull her foot away from the pedal. She managed to pull the car over and shifted it into park.

By chance or divine intervention, my mother had somehow pulled into the parking spaces in front of a police station. She threatened to go inside and report him. She convinced him that we had to get home and he had to let her drive. I was scratching my arms as I sobbed, adrenaline and overwhelming panic rushing through my body. While I spent the rest of the miserable ride home keeping an eye on my father. No-transcript. She looked back at us and unconvincingly said we'll be okay. I wanted to believe her, but I knew she was lying to herself and to us. My father passed out and the rest of the long ride home was quiet. When we got home, my mother took me to the pediatrician. The doctor asked my mother if I had come across poison ivy, any new food, shellfish, any laundry detergent. Then she asked my mother if anything at home would cause me a lot of stress. I stared at my mother, waiting to see what she would say. Tears began to well in her eyes and she said yes, there is.

0:15:24 - Speaker 4

Wow, I am sick. This story is so well written from the voice of a kid and what this narrator went through that it really hit me. We've heard this story. It was workshopped at our writing retreat in December of 2022. It's not like the first time I've heard it, but it feels like just hearing it out again. It's just really her voice, the whole thing.

0:16:03 - Speaker 3

It's brutal, it is yeah it is One thing that I love about it is the through line. She never stopped bringing up the rash. It's weird because we heard it in December, but this time I was like wait, what is the rash about? I was wondering that throughout the landing told us this isn't just a story about. This is a great example of the situation and the story. Really it's like this traumatic vacation happened and I got this rash. But what this rash really means is I've been dealing with so much stress at home. Damn the mom. Cool, cool mom. What a badass. The way we see her Driving and pulling into a police department. That was interesting. Then she told the truth at the end.

0:17:05 - Speaker 4

It's also just so effective the way she gives tiny details. There's tension. For me the tension was there the whole time with this rash. Is that going to ruin her trip? But then we see, oh, it's not, but something else is. Then we see the gun and the drunk it was just a lot and then they get in the car and there's like more tension and now I feel like it's like very meta, like I'm living her life with her, so of course it's going to give her a rash Very, very good show and tell True.

0:17:40 - Speaker 3

I thought from the very beginning she sort of set up this the way that you're saying it tension. But she set up this beautiful vacation scenario but mixed in with like the drinking buddies mean drunk, loud drunk like there was this ominous foreshadowing, you know, like sunny, sunny day and something really bad's gonna happen. She did that. I mean the whole, like the way that she described the hike too, like they were all looking for this Shangri-La and then it was horrible. Can't you just imagine a little kid also like wearing like jeans and a sweater or something and it's fucking hot, and then, not knowing how to deal with that, I felt her 100% yeah.

0:18:33 - Speaker 4

Yeah, let's talk about the ending. Ending's your favorite part? It really is, because we're reading this whole thing, we're in her life, we're in her story, we're in on the trip, we're in the car, the whole thing. And I'm like, why is she telling us the story Same as what you were saying, like why are we hearing about this rash? And then, at the end, when they're at the doctor, we're like, oh gosh, is the mom gonna say, or is this gonna be a secret? That's ongoing and this poor girl is gonna be enduring, enduring, enduring. But the way it ends, with the mom speaking up and saying that there is a problem at home, it's true, gives us hope.

0:19:14 - Speaker 3

Yeah, it was like someone saw through it. This doctor was really interesting, because I wouldn't. That was surprising. I wouldn't think a doctor would just treat the rash, but this doctor took a step like a big step, like stepped into their private lives. And this was 19,. She told us 1977.

0:19:37 - Speaker 4

I mean it's possible he had seen some sort of a pattern over the years, but didn't wanna push and push and so maybe just asking the question and having somebody ask and somebody answer was, and then I'm dying to know where how this turns out, like what happens to this narrator after that. You know, I wanna read the whole book. Honestly, I know she's writing a book. Right, she's writing a book, she is. Yeah, yeah, she is. She's definitely we're not gonna let her get away with, not Cause there is a book and there's so many people that will hear this and thank God I have to speak up.

0:20:15 - Speaker 3

I'm really proud of the mother in that moment, proud of the doctor.

0:20:19 - Speaker 4

And I'm so proud of her for sharing. Thank you guys for listening and thank you, kim Costigan, for sharing your story. Really, you brought Alice in down. I know, yeah, super, super, really amazing writing, amazing vulnerability. Just you know, having the nerve to share something this personal is fucking huge and we're proud of you, kim, thank you, and thank you for sharing it with us. ["i'm so Done"].

Writing class radio is hosted by me, Allison Langer and me, Andrea Askowitz. Audio production is by Matt Cundle, Evan Serminsky, Chloe Emol Lane and Aiden Glassy at the Sound Off Media Company. The music is by Justina Chandler. There's more writing class on our website, writingclassradiocom, including stories we study editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. If you wanna write with us every week, you can join our first draft weekly writers group. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays, 12 to one Eastern Time, or Eduardo Wink, Thursdays, eight to nine PM Eastern Time. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. And if you're a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist, group that needs healing or you just want your team to write better, we can help. Check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradiocom, Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and, most importantly, the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

0:22:08 - Speaker 3

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours so? Just our showtime.

0:22:20 - Speaker 4

Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

0:22:25 - Speaker 6

You looking to make the most out of this life and optimize your personal wellness? Then check out the Natural man podcast. Join me, host Mike C, as we explore all areas of human wellness physical, mental and emotional. Learn strategies to optimize your own well-being and be in the driver's seat of your own health. Remember your doctor works for you. Learn bio hacks, neuro hacks, ways to improve sleep and ways to optimize your body and your mind. Check us out on Apple, spotify, the Fountain App and at naturalmanpodcastcom.

Show Notes Episode 158: My Dead Mother Brings My Sister and Me Together Once a Year

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Maxine Poupko. Maxine’s story is a great example of character development, showing the tiny details in a complex relationship, and bringing the reader into a different world. Maxine wrote this story for the Writing Class Radio retreat in February 2023. The story was workshopped and refined with feedback and encouragement from the group. If you have a strained relationship with a member of your family, this episode is for you!

Maxine Poupko is a writer, a registered nurse, and a health advocate. She teaches writing workshops at the International Women’s Writing Guild summer conferences. Her stories have been published in The Sun and the book, A Waist is a Terrible Thing to Mind, by Jan Phillips. Maxine is a student of Writing Class Radio, which she says is her favorite thing to do.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marnino Toussaint.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon.

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft and receive a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

0:00:01 - Speaker 1

If you're one of the many who use this Stitcher app to listen to this show, the app is going away as of August 29th. You'll need to use another podcast app like, say, apple Podcast or Spotify. You may also like Pocketcast or Castro, or maybe even Overcast, or now may be the time you try out a podcasting 2.0 app at newpodcastappscom. And when you get your app set up, don't forget to follow or subscribe to our show.

0:00:46 - Speaker 3

I'm Andrea Askewitz, I'm Allison Langer, and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is Equal Parts Heart and Art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, Writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work at our shit. There's no place in the world like Writing Class, and we want to bring you in.

0:01:17 - Speaker 4

Okay, so today on our show we're bringing you a story by Maxine Poopko, otherwise known as Poop. I'm going to give you a little bio of Maxine, but before I do I just wanted to give you a little hint about what this story is about, and I feel like this story is a brilliant example of taking the listener or the reader into a world, a world that many people do not know. So primarily, that's what I feel like it's about, but it's also about relationships and character development and, without a rant, you know, like really really showing instead of just telling. So all those things are what you are going to hear in Maxine's story.

Maxine Poupko is a writer, a registered nurse and a health advocate. She teaches writing workshops at the International Women's Writing Guild Summer Conferences, no-transcript, and her stories have been published in the Sun and the book A Waste is a Terrible Thing to Mind by Jan Phillips. Maxine is a student of writing, class radio, which she says is her favorite thing to do. Thank you, maxine, we love you. My favorite thing to do too. Mine too. Back with Maxine's story after the break. For anyone interested in improving your writing first draft, weekly's Writers Group is for you. It's Tuesday's 12 to 1 Eastern Time and Thursday night's 8 to 9 Eastern Time. I teach the one on Tuesday and Eduardo Wink teaches the one. Actually, I wouldn't say teach Facilitates that group on Thursday night, because it is a group, it's a community. We come together to write for 30 minutes, share what we wrote, get feedback and leave inspired. First session always free.

Otherwise $35 a month. That gives you eight full sessions a month. If you are interested in joining first draft, jump on Patreon.

0:03:11 - Speaker 3

Slash Writing Class Radio, a famous writer called Allison Langer once said you'll never know how great your writing is unless you share it at first draft.

0:03:22 - Speaker 4

I love when you quote me MUSIC.

0:03:28 - Speaker 3

There's a new podcast out there called Business as Activism, and it's hosted by my really good friend, the brilliant Elijah Selby. It is thoughtful. It's like you know what we got to change the way we do business in the United States and Elijah Selby tells us how Get Business as Activism wherever you get your podcast MUSIC. We're back. This is Andrea Askowitz and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Maxine Poopko reading her story. Once a year, our dead mom unites my sister and me. My sister and I meet yearly at our mother's grave.

0:04:16 - Speaker 5

Our mom has been gone for 33 years. She's buried at Lake Side Memorial, a large Jewish cemetery in Miami. We were raised in tradition and we were raised in the same way. We were raised in traditional Orthodox Judaism, adhering to the many laws and observances. The Sabbath and Jewish holidays were days of rest, going to synagogue and no use of electricity. My mother kept a kosher kitchen complete with two sets of dishes.

When I became an adult, I gradually stopped adhering to the rules. The process of letting go of living a Jewish lifestyle was difficult emotionally. As a child going to a religious school, I believed in the Jewish God, who set up 613 commandments for the Jewish people, and I was taught I would be punished for not following them. The problem, though, was that I couldn't follow the rules. I was hungry on Jewish holidays, when I was supposed to fast for 24 hours, so I snuck food where no one was looking. I left the synagogue to play with friends instead of staying inside and praying. I rebelled against anyone who told me what to do or what not to do. Eventually, I had to follow my own path. I didn't go to synagogue on Sabbath and holidays, I didn't follow all the strict food rules and I dressed the way I wanted to, which was usually jeans and t-shirt instead of the long skirts and wigs the women in my community wore. I desecrated the rules of modesty. I was an outsider to my tribe and became part of a more artistic, free-spirited and creative community of friends.

A sister and I fought a lot as kids. We shared a bedroom. Occasionally we talked and laughed, but mostly we argued. She got me into trouble for leaving tissues on the floor and listening to the radio way past my bedtime. She tattled to our mother and I got hit for misbehaving. I hated my sister for that. We're both grandmothers now.

My sister still maintains the Orthodox Jewish lifestyle like our mom did, other than family deaths and weddings. The only time I see her is when we meet at the cemetery to visit mom. I always have trouble finding my mom's grave. I drive into the cemetery, go straight for two blocks right on Galilee. Is it left at Sinai, mommy? Where are you? I call my sister for directions. She always knows where the grave is. She gets there first. She was more like my mother. Both of them rule followers. I'm sure my mom liked her best. They had more common, enjoyed being in each other's company. My mother and I constantly argued.

My sister was all dressed up and waiting for me at my mother's grave. She wore her religious married woman mandated wig called a shatel. It was stylishly quaffed and had blonde highlights. She wore our mother's diamond earrings, watch and wedding band. A long black skirt and a silky beige top covered her arms. Modesty covering of the body is an important Jewish law. She looked pretty.

I was wearing a short sleeve t-shirt with a logo of a woman running with a wolf and my favorite jeans with holes at the knees. My hair was in a messy ponytail under an old straw hat. I didn't wear any of the jewelry my mother left for me. It wasn't my style. My sneakers were covered in paint from art class.

My sister brought a few little rocks which she placed on top of mom's tombstone, which is a Jewish tradition. Then she opened her black prayer book and began mumbling the prayers for the dead Shaker ha'chayn ve'hevel, ha'yofi Isha'yir at adonai hi'itit halal T'nulam I priyadeha ve'yahal, eluha B'chayarim ma'aseha. I searched the ground for a few rocks. I would have liked to bring a more personal object like the small crystal heart sitting on my bookshelf, but I forgot. I opened my backpack looking for something special. I found a little square candy wrapped in gold foil. Mom loved candy but she rarely allowed herself to eat it. I snuck the treat onto the top of the gravestone and covered it with leaves. I took off my sneakers so I could feel the earth. My sister glanced at me, stopped her prayers and said you can't take your shoes off in a cemetery. You're walking on, mommy. I ignored her. The ground felt cool under my feet. It made me feel closer to my mother. My sister went back to her prayers and I felt good about my contribution to my mom's tombstone. Before exiting the cemetery, we symbolically washed our hands.

There's an old-fashioned water pump for this ritual. Years ago we named it the Helen Keller Pump. As kids my sister and I loved the movie the Miracle Worker. We stood at the pump like always. I washed my hands first and imitated Helen Keller, slowly saying the word water. My sister washed her hands next, saying water. The same way. We suddenly laughed and our laughter just became hysterical. I know making fun of someone with disabilities is mean. I know better. So I'm always ashamed. It's also sacrilegious. So seeing my sister break a rule makes it devious and fun. In those moments at the pump I always feel a deep connection to my sister. All our differences seem to dissolve in the cleansing water and suddenly we are two young little girls, sisters, laughing together.

0:11:47 - Speaker 4

I love this story. I really, really love this story and I really feel her pain, her humor, her torment, the whole thing. I don't know if it's her voice or if it's the way she told the story or wrote the story, but I really get it. She took us into this world and I felt a part of this Orthodox Jewish world and the tradition and the way it just drowned her and just maybe the shame or the how she felt with her sister and her mom. I just felt the whole tension of the whole piece.

0:12:20 - Speaker 3

I thought she did an excellent job with character. I see the narrator's character versus the sister's character Right from the very beginning. She takes us through. Right now. It was like, oh wow, really well done the way she laid out their 613 commandments. The problem though I couldn't follow the rules. She just states it and then she tells us which rules she couldn't follow. She was hungry when she was supposed to fast. She wanted to wear jeans and a t-shirt instead of the wig that she describes her sister in later. We get totally distinct personalities right from the beginning. Love that.

When she's at the grave, oh, what about the chanting? That was beautiful, so good. Yeah, you know what that did for me. It made me trust this narrator. Like she's not just saying I grew up in this world, she's embodied it. She's saying in Hebrew Hardcore, that was cool, hardcore. Yeah, I love that. I had not heard the chanting yet, so that was exciting. And then, okay, she puts candy, covers it with a leaf, and then the sister's like you're walking on, mommy, I love the candy. Oh, so good, I know so good. Okay, then what did you think about the handling of the Helen Keller moment?

0:13:58 - Speaker 4

So I thought she admits like yeah, we're assholes, but just seeing her, you know, and seeing her sister do the same thing gave them a bond right. And I think that's true in many situations. When you know siblings or friends or whatever break a rule, there's like a bond, and I got it that way. It brought up a lot of that for me. So did I judge her? No, because that's just what we do. I mean, it felt very Seinfeld-esque.

0:14:27 - Speaker 3

You know what? What's interesting is, I think you're so right about like two people who are really close even though they are at odds with each other. They're really close their sisters, now their grandmothers, like they. Every single year they meet here, like they have history, and so, within the context of that world, they're allowed to make fun, like there's an understanding between them that they're not really saying or doing anything mean in regards to someone like Helen Keller. But then, on the other hand, there was this little part in the narrator's mind where she was like oh my God, my sister, who is so proper, follows all the rules, including like ones that you're not supposed to make fun of people part of Judaism and now she's doing that. She's making fun of someone who's blind and deaf. That's just wrong and it made it so right for them in that moment.

0:15:23 - Speaker 4

Yeah, well, we know Maxine because she's been taking our classes for years and years, and Maxine has a great sense of humor. She's goofy, she's fun. And, yes, she shows up in the same jeans and t-shirt every single time, Like she. That's just who she is and for this little moment, her sister came to the dark side with her and there's a bond Wait are you saying that because her outfits show that she's on the dark side?

Yeah, yeah, that she's not like orthodox anymore, so she's gone to the dark side, yeah, so for a second she got a tiny inkling of like approval, you know, or just bond, from the sister and I just I love that so much.

0:16:03 - Speaker 3

Because her sister came to the dark side Exactly. That's funny. Do you think our radio listeners are going to get mad because now we took this like very private moment and now it's public. I'm just wondering, will they? And if anyone gets pissy at us, let us know we're open. Yeah, sure Piss on us.

Go ahead. Yeah, piss on us. Amazing how this specific moment told this whole story about two sisters, one already on the dark side, the other one coming over. Love it, I love how you see it that way. That's cool. He likes the pain.

0:16:46 - Speaker 2

I eat. I don't get jaded. I work too hard. I want to be famous. I never let my guard down. I think what had happened was I thought it'd bring us happiness.

0:17:08 - Speaker 3

Thank you, Poop, for sharing your story and thank you for listening. Writing Class Radio is hosted by me, Andrea Asplis and me, Allison Langer. Audio production by Matt Cundle, Evan Serminsky, Chloe Edmont Lane and Aiden Glassy at the SoundOff Media Company. Theme music is by Martinino Toussaint. There's more at Writing Class Radio on our website, writingclassradiocom, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. If you want to write with us every week, you can join our first draft weekly writers groups. You have the option of joining Allison Langer on Tuesdays, 12th to 1 Eastern and or Eduardo Wink, Thursdays, 8 to 9 PM Eastern. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you're a business owner or an entrepreneur or a community activist or a group that needs healing, we can help you your team, write better. Check out all of our classes on our website, writingclassradiocom.

0:18:31 - Speaker 4

We'll come to the community that comes together for instruction and excuse to write and, most importantly, the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday. There's no better way to understand ourselves than each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

0:18:50 - Speaker 2

Shining like I was a ghetto bird. I don't want to leave the ghetto first, but so that I need you.

0:18:59 - Speaker 4

Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

0:19:04 - Speaker 1

I'm Jeff Woods and I'm shining a light on music and the rock stars who make it.

0:19:08 - Speaker 2

He just was one of those people. He stood out, he was a magic guy.

0:19:11 - Speaker 4

He really was a magic guy. We all have force. He had the same amount of force as we all had. This was before Led Zeppelin Robert was full on. I mean, he was Led Zeppelin without the band behind him. He had the hair, the jeans, the whole thing, you know, and he was amazing.

0:19:25 - Speaker 1

The records at Rockstar's podcast heard around the world and yours to hear wherever you get podcasts. All the episodes from Jeff Woods Radio at JeffWordsRadio.com.

Show Notes Episode 157: I’m the Black Crayon Nobody Wants

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Corey Devon Arthur. Corey has served 25 years on a life sentence for robbery and murder and is currently housed at Otisville Correctional Institution in New York. Corey is an artist and writer who has been published on Writing Class Radio and The Marshall Project, among others. Corey’s stories have aired onEpisode 120: My Pen Uncovers the Real Me, Episode 128: My New Manifesto, and Episode 143: Cutting Needless Words. 

This story is a great example of metaphor, which is not easy to pull off. Andrea and Allison will talk metaphor and about everything Corey nailed in this story.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marnino Toussaint.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft FREE Zoom link.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. 

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

A Transcription of the episode is available here.

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

I'm Allison Langer.

I'm Andrea Askowitz.

0:21: Andrea Askowitz

And this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast with equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art we mean the craft of writing, no matter what's going on in our lives, Writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work at our shit. There's no place in the world like Writing Class, and we want to bring you in.

0:50: Allison Langer

Today on our show, we bring you a story by artist and writer Corey Devon Arthur. Corey has served 25 years on a life sentence for robbery and murder, and is currently housed at Otisville Correctional Institution in New York. Corey has been published here on the Writing Class Radio podcast and the Marshall Project, among others. To hear Coreys previously aired stories listen to episode 120, My Pen Uncovers The Real Me, episode 128 My New Manifesto and episode 143, Cutting Needless Words. Today's story really drives home the importance of being vulnerable. And we talk about how often it takes writing with people you trust to get to the deep shit. You'll understand what I mean after you hear Corey's story. And as you listen, I also want you to notice Korea's excellent use of metaphor, which is not easy. So what is metaphor? And how is it used in a story? Okay, so well metaphor is a literary device used to compare two unlike things so in this story, Corey compares himself to a broken black crayon. And we'll talk more about Corey's use of metaphor after he reads his story.

2:06: Andrea Askowitz

Back with Corey's story after the break. We're back. This is Andrea Askowitz and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Corey Devon Arthur reading his story broken crayon.

2:24: Corey Devon Arthur

Brooklyn, 1982. In kindergarten, I began to draw. I used a dirty, no-name-brand black crayon to scribble a big round circle on top of a crooked stick figure cross. It was misshapen and awkward—a depiction of how I felt about myself. Like the dirty, broken, black crayon, I was the one nobody wanted. I was raised by my great grandma and mother. Back then, I felt more "in the way" than useful. Mama was always at work or just out. Grandma was up in her years. She didn't have the energy to chase after me. I played tag with other kids at an old-abandoned public school. Besides being condemned, it was crammed with crackheads engaged in all sorts of criminal activity. I watched the fiends smoke the waxy white rocks. The piss and spit coated walls became my first public art gallery. I wrote as big as my child arms could stretch: "COREY DEVON ARTHUR." "Get your little nasty ass black hands off me and go wash up." That's what Mama and Grandma used to shout at me. Unfortunately, the white soap wasn’t strong enough to cleanse my childhood. Nor did the soap ever make the pictures I drew on paper, clean enough to hang on the refrigerator, like I seen white parents do on TV. There weren't any men around to show me how to be a boy. It wasn't until I started socializing with other boys at school that I realize I was peeing like a girl. The other boys teased me to no end. "Stop playing with your wee wee," my grandma told me. “That’s not what good boys do.” I felt embarrassed and ashamed because I didn't know how to tell Mama and Grandma that touching myself felt good. I hid when I wanted to feel good, and I never felt like a good boy. The hood in the 90s was full of older males who sold crack. They hung around the abandoned school and showed me how to draw myself into a street savage. They became my role models, and I continued to sketch self-portraits with the only crayon I had. My artistic mind went to work. The white kids drew comics with their brand-new, colorful Crayola crayons. I drew crime with broken, black nubs. I blended the darks of my identity in drug dens with other dangerous dark places. I drew the gutter and the alley. I drew myself as a drug dealer. I drew the fist I used to fight, the crack I came to sell, the guns I used to frighten, and the dick I used to fuck. I kept the dirty, broken, black crayon at my fingertips because I loved to draw. Later, I would draw my graffiti on the street corners of Brooklyn. I called my pieces Wounded because the critics of society said I was sick. "You were born nothing but a no-good nigga." That’s what Ms. Smalls, my eighth-grade guidance counselor told me. She caught me spray painting my name on the side of the school instead of sitting in science class. Society has a place where they fix broken bottom niggers like the one I drew myself to be. It’s called Rikers Island. At 16, I got busted for selling crack. At Rikers, they animalized me inside cold cages and taught my demons how to come out and cut each other up. Then they locked me in the box (solitary confinement) for becoming what they socialized me to be. I drew myself going Koo Koo. "SNAP!" That’s the sound I heard the second my mind broke. The sensory and social deprivation left nothing else for the demon to feed on except my mind and heart. My own demon would have consumed every morsel of my humanity, had I not redrawn myself as a 15-year-old white girl named Anne Frank. Despite Anne being 15 and me being 16, we were just two teenagers being oppressed and killed slowly. During my two years at Rikers, I was able to reimagine enough of Anne Frank's dairy to save what I could of my diminishing humanity. I didn't want to lose my sanity in solitude, so I slipped some of it in between the pages of her dairy. While there I saw Anne suffering in a way that showed me how to survive and fend off the savage I was becoming. Anne found a way to color kindness within the cruelty that kept us confined. Anne kept me alive. Unfortunately, Anne couldn't save me on the day it counted the most. A year after my release, at 19 years old, I participated in a robbery with two other men that resulted in the death of my former 9th grade English teacher. I didn't draw the gun. I didn’t fire the shot, but his blood is still on my hands. I went into Rikers a broken street thug, and I left an angry monster. In the winter of 1998, at 20, I shuffled into Attica Correctional Facility chained and shackled with guns pointed at my head. The prison guard at Reception said, "I was born and bred to break niggas like you." The prison guards saw I wasn't shook, so we began to shake. The snuffs, stomps, and slaps didn't stop, until the officers were sufficiently satisfied that my slumped body resembled that of a slave. The assaults lasted six seconds, six minutes, or six hours. Either way, it always felt like it went on forever. When a beat down occurred, the sense of time shifted with the breaking and dislocating of my bones. I drew myself in a still-life pose so they would stop stomping me out. I sucked in my breath so I wouldn’t scream. I allowed myself to exhale when I was sure (by silence) they had stopped. That’s when I slipped into a place where tortured artists like me learn to draw sick shit. We call our style, Surviving in the System. I immediately sharpened my crayon into a shank, securing contraband in my rectum, and engaging in a string of cuttings and stabbings that shaped the scars on the only canvas I had left: my flesh. Most folks saw a 20-something broken, Black crayon who had drawn his own savagery. Two women saw something else. After 25 years inside, I wrote and published an essay about the Covid crisis in my prison. For the first time, I wasn’t just a dirty, broken, black crayon. I was Corey Devon Arthur, the writer and artist. Emily Nonko, a professional journalist and founder of Empowerment Avenue, saw the writer. Emily recruited me to squeeze on free society by writing about life in the joint. Alli Langer, the dopest white girl on earth (DWGOE), found me through Emily. Alli’s a podcast producer, activist, and all-around pro. Alli loves to say "fuck” but assured me that fucking is something we would never do. I told her I've been handling my own dirty, black crayon long enough to please myself (despite my grandma’s scorn). Alli's my homegirl. Alli uses her superpowers to get at the bag. Being a beautiful, nosey, persistent task master is how she penetrated my truth with her Jedi mind fuck tricks. She took me to a place of vulnerability that no one has ever taken me to before. The DWGOE shared her pain with me so we could heal together. She stared at me the entire time, while I told her what happened the night my 9th grade English teacher was murdered. Together, she and I sketched out the worse thing I had ever done. It was the hardest thing I wrote. That was the first and only time I have ever been truly penetrated by a woman. She slid inside me slowly and deeply. She showed me how beauty could be drawn by a dirty, black, broken crayon. It’s likely I’ll never receive the forgiveness I crave. I know how people see me. But I’m hungry to make meaning out of destruction. It's been two years since I began writing with Alli. Since then, I've been published over a dozen times. I have redrawn myself as an artist, a feminist, and an activist for restorative justice. I launched a one-man art exhibit in a gallery in Brooklyn. Hundreds of people, including my mom and some formerly incarcerated people, crowded into the room to see my work, read my stories, and meet the people who believe in me. Unlike the abandoned school I played in as a kid, the gallery walls are clean, respected spaces of positivity. I didn't just use my dirty, broken, black crayon to draw the people who inspired me, I redrew myself.

11:37: Andrea Askowitz

This time when I heard this story, right now, first of all, whenever I get to the end, and this is so I've read this before, but I, I love it so much. I love the way he talks about you. But I want to get to that in a second. I feel like it's like I don't really always understand metaphors. And I hope I'm not getting this wrong, but he is a black crayon. That's a metaphor.

11:59: Allison Langer

That nobody wants.

12:01: Andrea Askowitz

A broken black crayon. And then the language of drawing he weaves throughout. And that is so well done.

12:13: Allison Langer

Yeah, well, I'm a little close to this especially, I mean, it feels a little uncomfortable to hear, like all the praise, and then to have it to be airing it. So I rather step out for a second and let you sort of give us more of your-

12:25: Andrea Askowitz

Well, let me then just then I'm sorry.

12:27: Allison Langer

No, go ahead.

12:28: Andrea Askowitz

Yeah, let me then just talk about the very end, because that's the part where yeah like, okay, let's not be so self serving. But I want to be because, well, one, it's not about me. So let's serve you. But the way that he described what happened when you were his teacher, is fucking stunning. The two of you sketched out the worst thing he ever did. So he uses that language sketched out. He was like, This is the closest thing, this is the only time a woman has truly penetrated me. And I mean, it's a little tiny, maybe could seem scary. But no, I don't think so. Like he's really just saying, writing and writing that his truth was the most vulnerable thing he's had to do. And he appreciates you for putting him through that and also because you did it with him and I know that this is the Writing Class Radio way. We are always, always students and teachers, both. And I know that there's a lot of teachers who are like, are students who are like, 'Why am I paying you money to hear your story?' Because this is why because everybody in the writing room has to be vulnerable for the truth to come out for everybody. So congratulations, Allison for doing that. And congratulations to Corey Devon Arthur for kind of like going for it. It's so hard, and then showed me how beauty could be drawn by a dirty black broken crayon. So he turned around like he was using this crayon to like, draw ugly shit his whole life. And at the very end, there's change in this narrator there's change in his perspective. And he wrote 'I redrew myself.'

14:33: Allison Langer

You know, I know that you've heard me say this a million times that like once I started going into prison to teach these guys to write and I I felt like every time I left I wasn't doing enough and I still feel that way. But when these guys Corey, in this instance, pours out their heart and can show me how much I'm helping them get through their sentence or their life or whatever it is. It does make me feel like alright, I'm touching one person. Not enough, but at least it's one person that isn't suffering as much. And I'm not saying it's even me. It's just a person believing in someone who everybody has given up on.

15:24: Andrea Askowitz

So this guy had two people, he had you and he had Emily Nonko from Empowerment Avenue. And because of that, he wrote a dozen he's gotten published a dozen times, he redrew himself as an artist, a feminist and activist. He launched a one person art exhibit that you went to.

15:45: Allison Langer

In Brooklyn, yeah.

15:46: Andrea Askowitz

He's touched up hundreds of people. So I get what you're saying, I struggle with it, too. Like, are we doing enough? Because we're just like sitting here, navel gazing, and then teaching other people how to navel gaze. But if they can navel gaze this hard. It's so important.

16:04: Allison Langer

The other thing I noticed when I listened to it this time, and I noticed this about him, and maybe everyone is that, so this guy I know from previous stories has navigated his life with sexuality. That's how he got people to see him to to assimilate with other people, white people, right, rich people.

16:24: Andrea Askowitz

I don't know what you mean, what do you mean?

16:26: Allison Langer

So he grew up on the streets, but his ninth grade English teacher, the man who was murdered, was a friend and so was his community of other, you know, sort of New York, ex, you know, wealthy folks who were in the drug scene and the sex scene. And they took them on vacations. And, you know, they all had like orgies and sex, and it was very sexual to feel accepted. Yeah.

16:52: Andrea Askowitz

Oh, so wait, did he have sex with? Was he like involved in sexual stuff with this ninth grade English teacher? Or?

16:59: Allison Langer

Well, I don't know that or, yeah, no, I think there were other people in the group. So there were a lot of drugs and sex going on. So but what I noticed between us is that, of course, there's a man in prison for 25 years and here's this woman paying attention to him. So it started sort of as like, 'Oh, what's this woman want?' You know, and I just put the kibosh on that completely. Listen, I'm not in for this. That's not what's going to happen here. We're going to develop a friendship, if that's what happens. But let's just take that off the table, so that we can be who we really are. And I think sometimes when sex is involved, we hide behind things we don't want that person to know. But there was none of that. So he could be 100% vulnerable and so could I, because I wasn't trying to like, I didn't have an agenda and neither did he. So I think just that point that he mentioned, there's a reason why that's in there. And that's, that's the case in our writing classes. And when people start writing, because you get to know somebody in a deeply vulnerable way. That is, has nothing to do with being naked.

18:03: Andrea Askowitz

So I like how he described the vulnerability of the writing connection that he had with you in a way that was very sexual. Even though you told him right from the start, fucking was not going to happen and he accepted that. But right, okay, so I get what you're saying. This narrator experiences the world in a very sexual way, and has from from being even as a little kid. The part where his grandmother told them to stop touching his weewee. Ah, that was heartbreaking to me. And then he actually had a callback about that. Wait, let me see. I noticed it. Where was it? There, there was definitely a callback to his grandmother: Despite my grandmother… There was something that came up later in the story. And I was like, Oh, well done. I don't know where it is. Because I was too hung up in a great way on all of his language that was about coloring and drawing. He talked about drawing in a metaphorical way. But he actually also drew, like he did draw on the school yard walls. Like he was a real artist throughout also.

19:03: Allison Langer

And still is. Yeah.

19:20: Andrea Askowitz

And what about the Anne Frank moment?

19:23: Allison Langer

So I've seen a lot like did you ever read or watch? It's called Freedom Writers w.r.i.t.e.r.s. And there she gets this whole group of like, you know, low income kids to really bond with this book. And so it-

19:40: Andrea Askowitz

What was with the Diary of Anne Frank?

19:44: Allison Langer

Mm hmm. And there's something about her survival or her struggle that seems to resonate with many people, but especially with people who are discriminated against, and so I just thought that he bonded to somebody who was like him. Like we do in stories. When we hear a story we connect with. And so he connected with her.

20:07: Andrea Askowitz

He turned himself into her. Again, another metaphor. Like he became Anne Frank. I thought that was really cool for like a big tough guy to call himself Anne Frank. That was like such a heart opening moment for me. I just love that. Oh, and what about the part where he is talking about the crime? I didn't draw the gun, again, draw, but his blood is still on my hands. Full responsibility, that makes me love this narrator. And then when he was getting like, pummeled to shit in prison. He drew himself into a still life. God, that was good. Yeah, yeah, the more honest and vulnerable, the more that we can't hate them. That's exactly this. That's exactly the whole reason that we are storytelling advocates.

21:02: Allison Langer

Yeah, I you know, I want to just bring this up, because I'm sure there are people listening that are like this guy murdered somebody. And we have told other episodes by this guy's as mentioned in the beginning, he has told other stories on this podcast. So I think it would be beneficial for people to listen to those because I feel like the more we get to understand and know somebody through their stories. I mean, it's, it's hard because there are tons of people out there that feel that he should fry and just be there for the rest of his life. I'm not one of them because I do feel that people can change. And I just feel like anybody who's listening to this, that, that has that opinion, that's okay. But just maybe try to understand.

22:08: Allison Langer

Thank you, Corey, for sharing your story with us. And thank you guys for listening. To read more Corey, or to listen to more Corey, don't forget to listen to his previous episodes and check our show notes for links.

22:23: Andrea Askowitz

Our show notes include the entire transcript. So like if you are hearing impaired, or if you just, you know you want to geek out and and be like a super fan, you can go to writingclassicradio.com and go to the blog/show notes and everything that is spoken on the podcast is there in writing with links to like links to the other episodes that Corey has been on and links to anything that we mentioned. Just wanted to make that clear.

22:55: Allison Langer

Writing class Radio is hosted by me Allison Langer.

22:58: Andrea Askowitz

And me Andrea Askowitz.

23:00: Allison Langer

Audio production by Matt Cundill Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. The music is by Marnino Toussaint. There's more Writing Class on our website, writingclassradio.com including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Join our community by following us on Patreon. And if you want to write every week with us you can join our first draft weekly writers group you have the option to join me on Tuesdays at 12-1pm Eastern Time, or Eduardo Wink on Thursdays 8 to 9pm Eastern time. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you're a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist, a group that needs healing and want to help your team write better we can help. Check out all the classes we offer on our website writingclass radio.com A new episode will drop every other Wednesday. Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and most importantly the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

24:06: Andrea Askowitz

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story, what's yours?

Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

Show Notes Episode 156: Outsourcing My Orgasm

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Jenny Powers. Jenny is a New York-based freelance reporter. She writes for HuffPost, The Cut, Business Insider, Fortune, and more. She is working on a memoir called, "Smooth Operator: Confessions of an Accidental Phone Sex Vixen." You can see more of her work at https://www.clippings.me/jpowers.

Jenny’s essay originally appeared in The Cut and is titled “Outsourcing My Orgasm.” We trimmed just slightly for the podcast. We love so many things about Jenny’s essay, and we talk about that in detail on this episode. She is vulnerable, honest, and expertly turns a unique situation into a universal story about weight, sex, and marriage.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marnino Toussaint.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A Transcription of this episode is available here.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. 

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

0:00:19 - Speaker 2

I'm Allison Langer.

0:00:20 - Speaker 3

I'm Andrea Askewitz, and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, Writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shit. There's no place in the world like Writing Class, and we want to bring you in.

0:00:52 - Speaker 2

Today on our show we're bringing you a story by Jenny Powers. Jenny is a New York based freelance reporter. She writes for HuffPost, the Cut Business Insider, fortune and more. She is working on a memoir called Smooth Operator Confessions of an Accidental Phone Sex Vixen. You can see more of her work at clippingsme slash jpowers and we'll have a link to that in our show notes.

0:01:20 - Speaker 3

So the story we bring you today was originally published in The Cut in New York magazines The Cut. I am so excited for our listeners to hear this story. It's a great example of a promise fulfilled. Does that make sense?

0:01:39 - Speaker 2

Yeah, she made a promise and fulfilled her promise.

0:01:42 - Speaker 3

Yeah, I think you'll understand it when you hear it. And it's also a great example of showing us the trajectory of a narrator. And it's a great example of a narrator knowing herself, a reliable knowing narrator.

0:02:01 - Speaker 2

Yeah, She uses all sorts of good stuff and especially how to turn a situation into a story. So back with Jenny Powers after the break. For anyone interested in improving your writing first draft, Weekly's Writers Group is for you. It's Tuesdays 12 to 1 Eastern Time and Thursday nights 8 to 9 Eastern Time. I teach the one on Tuesday and Eduardo Wink teaches the one. Actually, I wouldn't say teach Facilitates that group on Thursday night, because it is a group, It's a community. We come together to write for 30 minutes, share what we wrote, get feedback and leave inspired. First session is always free.

Otherwise $35 a month. That gives you eight full sessions a month. If you are interested in joining first draft, jump on Patreon slash Writing Class Radio.

0:02:54 - Speaker 3

A famous writer called Allison Langer once said you'll never know how great your writing is unless you share it at first draft.

0:03:02 - Speaker 2

I love when you quote me. Hey, this is Allison, host of Writing Class Radio. I know there are many of you out there who don't have access to a writing group or someone to look over your essay or manuscript. If that's the case, I can help. I'm available to help you whip your essay into shape. I'll read through your draft, offer suggestions, line edits and I'll spend time with you brainstorming for the best possible ending. But be prepared to answer the question what is this story about? Because if you don't know, nobody knows. You know. Sometimes it takes more than a bath or a long walk to figure this out. It takes a brutal editor who will tell you what works, what needs more explaining and what needs to go. For more information, visit writingclassradio.com. Then email Allison at writingclassradiocom. Use the code WCR and your first 15 minutes is free.

0:04:04 - Speaker 3

We're back. This is Andrea Askowitz and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Jenny Powers reading her story Outsourcing My Orgasm.

0:04:19 - Speaker 4

It seemed cruel to be released directly back onto the city streets at rush hour and in Midtown Manhattan after what had just happened. I'd imagined lounging in a cozy waiting room while I sip tea and relished in the afterglow. Instead, I dressed in a hurry, exchanged an awkward hug and stood in a daze as the apartment door closed in my face. I just experienced one of the most mind-blowing, toe-curling orgasms of my life on the train home to Brooklyn. I tried to recount the day's events, but everything was a bit hazy. I'd put myself in someone else's hands. Literally I'd given a stranger, a woman, $270 for neurotic massage in a last-ditch attempt to find pleasure in my body, the same body that had given me so much displeasure in recent years. As I stood wedged between strangers on the subway, I smiled. When I walked in the door, my husband looked up from his computer with a perfunctory hey, how was your day? My usual response was fine, but today I was on a different plane.

We'd been together for 14 years and for the first five of those we couldn't keep our hands off each other. Our morning sex resulted in frequently showing up late for work, and our evenings and weekends were mostly spent between the sheets. My lingerie collection took up two dresser drawers. Our relationship began aboard the flight deck of the Intrepid Sea Air and Space Museum on a sweltering July evening, at what had been touted as New York's largest singles event of the summer. Neither of us was there to meet the one. I worked for the company producing the event and he worked for one of the beverage sponsors. One of his team members introduced me as the woman who saved their asses. Then the overzealous photographer asked us to move a little closer for a photo. My now husband casually tossed his arm around my shoulders and pulled me in. It felt like we'd been together forever. We shared a cab home and exchanged numbers. Within two months of dating we were practically living together.

Now, nearly a decade and a half later, some things changed, my body. The trifecta of childbirth nearing the half-century mark and a metabolism rate that has slowed to a crawl has caused me to gain weight. Up until that point I was a size two, despite never exercising, and a diet of vending machine cuisine. First my clothes started to feel a bit snug. Then I began to struggle with zippers and buttons. I tried cleanses and meal plans, counting points and intermittent fasting. I hired personal trainers, nutritionists and Park Avenue weight loss specialists. At the end of the day nothing worked, because the cold hard truth was I didn't do the work. I was in an ugly state of limbo between what I wanted and what I was willing to do to actually get there. It all made my sex drive weaker than a dial-up modem.

My husband, on the other hand, maintained the sex drive of a frat boy. He'd routinely press up against me after turning off our bedroom lights and I'd say I had a headache or cramps or some other excuse. One fed-up sigh later he'd turn over, giving me his back. It wasn't that I didn't enjoy sex with him. When we actually had it it was great. But somewhere along the line I'd let the thoughts in my head take over, and it's hard to have an orgasm when you're too busy wondering if you're positioned in the least fat way possible. Even when masturbating I couldn't control the strength of my self-degrading thoughts, so I gave up on that too. Some girlfriends swore by libido-boosting prescription meds. Another raved about the results from a vaginal injection known as the O-Shot. One friend joked if I were a man I could engage the services of an escort or at the very least find a massage parlor with someone willing to give me a happy ending. It's not that much of a stretch when we think about it.

I had already outsourced everything else a task-gravit to install the allegedly DIY peel-and-stick wallpaper, a glam squad to give me a smoky, but not too smoky eye for the annual private school gala, a door-dash or to turn a food craving into dinner. I googled erotic massage and happy ending massage for women and found a New York magazine story about a guy, Dr M, who gives women erotic massages from his apartment. The only hitch potential clients were required to submit a photo in advance. Maybe it's a safety thing, maybe it's a vanity thing. Either way, considering that my self-image was already in the toilet, I ruled him out. That and something about outsourcing this to a guy felt like crossing a line into infidelity.

I came across listings for tantric therapists offering sensual massages for women and couples. Their websites all looked the same a smattering of stock photo images showcasing flickering candles and statues draped in spiritual beads. The therapists were referred to as healers, priestesses and guides. As I read, I learned that yoni massage was named for the Sanskrit word for lady parts and roughly translated to sacred space or cave. Seeing that my own sacred space felt like an abandoned storage unit. I continued scrolling. Every 20-something white female featured on the site appeared to have an identical bio, so I picked the one with the earliest availability and completed the new client intake form, which required my LinkedIn profile and a photo of my driver's license or passport to verify it was really me. Within an hour, I received an email from a woman named Shanti confirming my appointment for the next day and clarifying that the donation for the hour-long massage would be $270 in cash. Her only instructions for the next day were to go to 59th Street and 8th Avenue and text her once I arrived, for the exact building and apartment number.

I was afraid this might be a scam, but I went about the rest of my day, which now included getting a Brazilian wax. I intended to tell my husband about my plans, but everything happened so fast and now I wasn't quite sure how to broach the subject. Then, as I stepped out of the shower that night, my husband barged into the bathroom and spotted my newly waxed and barely there landing strip and raised an eyebrow. The jig was up As I toweled off and he stood flossing. I confessed. I told him I'd been making up excuses to avoid sex because of my weight and that this session was something I needed to do for myself. I also promised to text him my whereabouts the next day. He tried to mask his surprise that I'd gone to these lengths, but he didn't try to change my mind. Having been married to me for more than a decade, he knew better.

The next morning, I put on the nicest pair of underwear I owned and headed to meet Shanti. As instructed, I arrived at the designated corner and texted her. She responded. Less than a minute later I texted my husband the exact location and once he replied with a thumbs up, I took a deep breath and pressed the buzzer outside a nondescript three-story walk-up. The apartment was on the ground floor and the door was ajar.

Shanti, a brunette with the body of a ballerina, peeked out and greeted me in a hushed tone. She was barefoot and wearing a paper-thin sundress, waving me inside a dimly-lit room that smelled of sage, with Enya playing softly. She invited me to sit down alongside her on a nearby worn-love seat. She wasted no time looking directly into my eyes and asking, “What brings you here today, Jenny?” My eyes welled up with tears. Well, I've gained a lot of weight and I no longer feel comfortable having sex because I'm self-conscious, but I still want to. Um, I fiddled with my wedding band. Feel good? I nodded. Well, you're in the right place, she said and took my hand, explaining that the purpose of the yoni massage was to help people feel more comfortable by exploring their relationship with their bodies and releasing any tension. She led me to a brightly lit bathroom filled with a variety of bath products, turned on the shower, instructed me to rinse off and left.

It wasn't until I stepped out that I realized there were no towels, leaving me no choice but to call out to her. When the door opened, shanti was holding open an oversized white towel In an effort to hide my body. I beelined into her arms. She took my hand and guided me into a small room with a massage table, incense burned on a shelf next to an empty ceramic tray, which she informed me was for my donation. When she excused herself, I placed the cash onto the tray and slid onto the table, covering my body with the towel.

She returned with a smile and removed the towel, motioning for me to sit up. Then she climbed onto the table so we were facing each other. She took my hand and guided it to my heart and told me to take several deep breaths. We sat staring into each other's eyes, breathing in sync. When she stood up, she lifted a cantor from the floor and I watched as she slowly poured its oil into her palm and rubbed her hands together, gesturing for me to lie down. I closed my eyes. She started kneading my shoulders, working her way down the front of my body. I emitted a tiny gasp.

I was torn between wanting to remain present and watch her every move and the natural impulse to close my eyes. Her fingers moved down past my belly and she gently spread my legs apart, stroking my inner thigh and making her way up to my pubic area. Maybe it was her delicate manner, or perhaps it was because I'd never been touched by a woman, but every scintilla of my body felt alive, as if an electric pulse was pumping through my veins. At some point I thought I heard someone moaning nearby. It was me. The sounds were coming from somewhere deep inside me.

When I climaxed, my entire body shuttered and though my eyes were shut, I swore I saw a vibrant display of colors beneath my lids. It was the most powerful and freeing feeling in the world. I uttered. I want to stay here forever. Before catching myself and nearly dying of embarrassment. She grinned and continued caressing me as my body trembled. Soon, I came again. Every part of me was tingling and it was beautiful. At that moment I loved every inch of myself. For the first time in as long as I could remember, I was grateful for the body I inhabited because it allowed me to feel such pleasure.

When I walked through our apartment door later that evening, I was still tingling from the aftershock. Fine, no longer seemed like an acceptable response to my husband's inquiry, when it had in fact seemed monumental. Don't you remember what today was? I responded, unable to contain my joy. For a moment, he panicked, as if he'd missed school pickup or an anniversary. Hello, it's not every day your wife gets an erotic massage. Do I look any different? I headed to the bathroom to inspect my face. I smiled at myself and gently touched my face and neck and mouth. The word wow. It wasn't just about the orgasm. It was about my body cooperating and allowing me to once again feel unadulterated pleasure in a way I thought might have been gone forever. For once, my mind and my body were on the same page.

That night in bed. I did not pretend I was asleep, I was more awake than ever. For the first time in years, I was the one to initiate sex. There are times in our lives that we are bound to feel like a car stuck in the mud waiting for assistance. Shanti arrived on the scene when I needed her most and gave me the push I needed to get me out of my rut. Better than the orgasm itself was this giant sense of relief in knowing I was still very capable of embracing intimacy.

It's been nearly four years since my appointment with Shanti And I still battle with my weight, but what I've gained is the notion that I am still worthy of enjoying pleasure in the body I have. Now I focus how my clothes fit instead of what size is marked on the label. I no longer rely on a revolving door of neutral tones to camouflage my shape, leaning instead toward cheery colors, funky patterns, even sequins. I've invested in a vibrator strong enough to drown out any negative noise in the back of my head, and I've stopped taking efforts to cover up my body in my husband's presence. And, to his surprise, I don't always insist the lights be turned off during sex.

0:16:41 - Speaker 3

Are we on? Oh my god, I am in love with this story. I feel like she did this thing that's so hard to do, which is like, oh my God, I'm gonna tell you this. Like she made like a huge promise at the beginning, as if she were saying like I'm gonna tell you this crazy, crazy thing that happened to me. You know Like just the name of her story I outsource my orgasm is such a like huge promise, but then for me she delivered.

0:17:13 - Speaker 2

There was a lot of things I really liked. I will say, though, that the whole time she was with Shanti, I was like is she enjoying this so much? because it's sort of like taboo? It's with a woman instead, or it's somebody different. And then I was worried, like she was gonna wanna, like it was gonna, break up her marriage, and so there was tension for me, like, oh God, yeah, totally 100%, because I was like, oh my gosh, just you know anyway. So then, but when she gets home and she tells us at the end and this is what stories often are missing, and in this story it's not missing at all Is that it's not just this cool, funky, unique situation, or maybe not so unique, I don't know, but she tells us I've never heard it before with a woman, So I think it's pretty unique.

0:17:59 - Speaker 3

but yeah, go ahead.

0:18:01 - Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't just about the orgasm, it was about. and then she tells us you know, enjoying, learning to enjoy pleasure, getting in touch with her mind and body, like all that stuff that she said. And then she goes into there are times in our lives blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Shanti pushed her out of the rut and gave her relief that she was now capable in embracing intimacy. So we trust her now because we've seen this whole thing, that she's now an expert in this. So that's what the higher register situation is.

We talk about that a lot, but wait, explain it, explain it, let's explain it here. Well, now she's the expert. What does that mean? So we talk about higher register a lot And sometimes, if it's done in the beginning, before we sort of hear the story and hear what the narrator has gone through, it feels preachy. But when we hear it later we're like, oh, this lady knows she can tell us about orgasm, she can tell us about outsourcing them or husband, or the marriage or her body or her weight, because she's going through it and she's already shared all that very vulnerable information with us.

0:19:04 - Speaker 3

So we trust her as the expert and in this case this narrator spoke directly to us and even spoke sort of in the third person. She said there are times in our lives that we are bound to feel like a car stuck in the mud waiting for assistance. So she's like talking to the general everybody with this authority, and that's what the higher register is is talking directly to the reader with authority. And I trusted her because she'd already yeah, because she'd been through this whole thing and Shanti arrived on the scene when she needed her most.

0:19:36 - Speaker 2

And then she also tells us she sort of closes up the arcs of like she's still battling her way But she is able to enjoy pleasure. She sort of views her body in a different way that's able to enjoy this pressure instead of the size that the clothing says which I Think that is important to know that she hasn't miraculously Changed because of it, but that she's still working towards it. But that also we get a little glimpse that she's not, you know, turning off all the lights at night and she stopped covering up her body so much when she's with her husband. She's proud of it and that's beautiful.

0:20:13 - Speaker 3

Yeah, because the outsourcing actually changed her in a profound way. I thought I don't know. I just I'm so in love with with this story. I mean basically like her trajectory. Well, one of the things that I love so much is that she knows herself really well. So she's, she goes there and when Shanti is asking her, like why are you here? She She's like she knows that she's gained weight, she knows that she doesn't feel good about herself anymore and Shanti says you want I think I think it was Shanti who said you want to feel pleasure or something. I don't remember exactly how she said it.

0:20:53 - Speaker 2

She asked her why are you here? And she she's babbles like and she's like I want, and she's like to feel pleasure. Shanti helps her out.

0:20:59 - Speaker 3

Yeah, right. So Shanti just like turned her around. What about the line where she said it's been a decade and a half and something's changed my body? That's where I really felt like this narrator was a knowing narrator. And then she gives us evidence about how it's changed. She also gave us backstory right before that about how sexual she and her husband were. She had two drawers filled with lingerie, yeah, and they and they were Always late to stuff like so so good. Oh, i want to ask you a question about the very, very, very beginning. So we know it's called outsource. I outsource my orgasm. And then the first line is It seemed cruel to be released directly back onto the city streets at rush hour and in midtown Manhattan After what it just happened. So it's kind of like um, it's vague, it's so interesting. I mean, i was into it, i was drawn in. But usually we talk about like why, why be so mysterious? I got it a hundred percent.

0:22:08 - Speaker 2

Oh, you did. She's in like this euphoric stage and she's out there and everybody's doing their thing and she's just experienced like Yeah, but it takes it okay.

0:22:20 - Speaker 3

So then there's one, two full sentences before she says I just experienced one of the most mind-blowing toe-curling orgasms of my life. Takes a little bit of time to get to it.

0:22:33 - Speaker 2

But I feel like she told us when she was going through it, one and the next, and she was like really enjoying it. So she, she showed us and then she told us that's why it didn't bother me.

0:22:43 - Speaker 3

No, but that's at the very, very beginning. I'm just saying it took it. She leads, she starts the story with us Oh, this is before she shows us that.

That's like the fourth, fifth sentence in. Yeah, she just started the story in a way that was a little bit mysterious, and we sometimes say why start a story with the mystery when You know you're not writing a mystery? but she did. But she captured me. Yeah, me too. But I think it was because of the promise That we talked about earlier. At the promise of this, is it gonna be about an outsourcing my orgasm? So I was like, okay, you have my attention When she positions herself in the least fat way possible. Oh, heartbreaking. She made a really good case for outsourcing even this, like the task rabbit, like all the other things that she outsources. It's like a why not this? I love her, she's genius. Do you know any other women who've ever done this?

0:23:43 - Speaker 2

Not anyone who's told me this. But when they were talking about Yoni massages, it reminded me of a story you wrote about going to a Yoni massage place with your wife.

0:23:53 - Speaker 3

Yes, but I was the one who was doing the Yoni massage on my wife, so it wasn't like everyone who wants to do the Yoni massage. Yoni, it's the lady parts. As she said it, her Yoni was an abandoned storage unit. I loved it.

0:24:10 - Speaker 2

Cave, I hear her, I'm with her, I hear you, Jenny Powers.

0:24:16 - Speaker 3

Here was another thing that I thought was great. I was like, what about the husband? What does the husband think? Like I'm thinking, and then, right as I'm really starting to worry, the husband catches her. So funny. I mean, seriously, I love this husband. He sees the landing strip, like wait, what? And then she tells him. And there, when she's telling him, it's like I need this for myself. I thought that was also so beautiful and so knowing. Wait. One other thing I just want to. I'm sorry I know I've been talking too much, but one other thing When she says this was the most powerful and freeing feeling in the world, that language is so simple and so perfect. Like I feel like sometimes we try too hard to explain something And that basically, she just said it was the most powerful and freeing feeling in the world, I loved every inch of myself. I mean, she's not, she's just direct and clear and simple, excellent. Like I thought the stakes were yeah, huge stakes, total change, excellent. Thank you, jenny Powers, for sharing this story And thank you for listening.

0:25:30 - Speaker 1

She likes the beat. I eat ice. I don't get jaded. I work too hard. I want to be famous. I never let my guard down. I think what had happened was I thought it bring us happiness.

0:25:54 - Speaker 3

Writing class radio is hosted by me, Andrea Asquitz.

0:25:57 - Speaker 2

And me.

0:25:58 - Speaker 3

Allison Langer. Audio production by Matt Kandel, Evan Serminsky, Chloe Imont Lane and Aiden Glassy at the Soundoff Media Company. Theme music is by Marneen O'Tusson. There's more writing class on our website, writingclassradiocom, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. If you want to write with us every week, you can join our first draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join Allison, Tuesdays 12 to 1 Eastern, And we have a new Thursday night writing group, Thursdays 8 to 9 Eastern, with Eduardo Wink. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you're a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist group that needs healing and want to help your team write better, we can help. Check out all our classes on writingclassradiocom. Join the community that comes together for instruction and, most importantly, the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

0:27:11 - Speaker 2

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

0:27:20 - Speaker 1

I'm running like I was a ghetto bird. I don't want to lead a ghetto bird, but so that I need you.

0:27:30 - Speaker 2

Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

0:27:34 - Speaker 5

Hey, it's Joel Impson, host of that nerd dad podcast. Look, finding time for yourself is an important part of parenting. It allows us to be the best version of ourselves for our kids, so tune in every week to talk about parenting, pop culture and politics. Whether you're an exhausted parent looking for a laugh or a stone teenager who clicked on this by mistake, this is the podcast for you. You can find me on Spotify, apple, google, the Dean Blundell Network or at thatnerddadca.

Show Notes Episode 155: Every Word Matters

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Laurie Eynon. This story is a behind-the-scenes Jeopardy! audition revealed and a good lesson in how every word matters. And the voice of the narrator is amazing. So good!!! Laurie takes us through her one chance at becoming a Jeopardy! champion and what happened.

Laurie Eynon is a hospital and hospice chaplain in Indianapolis, Indiana. She was a regular contributor to the Atlanta Journal Constitution's Sunday section, wrote a play that was produced off-off Broadway, and has been published in the HuffPost and Christian Science Monitor. Laurie Eynon watches Jeopardy! every night.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marnino Toussaint.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join Allison on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. 

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

0:00:18 - Speaker 2

I'm Andrea Askoitz, I'm Allison Langer, and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts heart and art. By heart we mean the truth in a story, and by art we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our pooooop. There's no place in the world like Writing Class, and we want to bring you in Today on our show.

0:00:50 - Speaker 4

We bring you a story by Laurie Eynon. This story is a behind the scenes situation revealed. Laurie takes us through her one chance at becoming a Jeopardy champion. We don't want to say too much about what happened, but what I will say is that this story is a really charming and fun, heavily voicy, voicy story, and I think it's really about how every word matters.

0:01:22 - Speaker 2

Back with Laurie's story after the break. For anyone interested in improving your writing, first draft, weekly's Writers Group is for you. It's Tuesdays 12 to 1 Eastern time and Thursday nights 8 to 9 Eastern time. I teach the one on Tuesday and Eduardo Wink teaches the one. Actually, I wouldn't say teach, facilitates that group on Thursday night, because it is a group, it's a community. We come together to write for 30 minutes, share what we wrote, get feedback and leave inspired. First session always free.

Otherwise $35 a month. That gives you eight full sessions a month. If you are interested in joining first draft, jump on Patreon slash Writing Class radio.

0:02:08 - Speaker 4

A famous writer called Alison Langer once said you'll never know how great your writing is, unless you share it at first draft.

0:02:16 - Speaker 2

I love when you quote me. We're back. This is Allison Langer and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Here's Laurie Eynon reading her story What Can't You Say on Jeopardy?

0:03:19 - Speaker 5

I'm not brainy in the Stephen Hawking kind of way, but I do have an exceptional ability to quickly access information stored in the recesses of my brain. The six wives of Henry, the Eighth Baltic Capital Cities Martin Scorsese movies call it a gift. It got me excellent grades in school, even in subjects like chemistry where I had no idea what the professor was talking about, but I could memorize atomic numbers and carbon shames to regurgitate on a test. Ever since I was in grade school, I prided myself on being the smartest kid in the room. Maybe I could be a little show-offy about it, but I basked in recognition of my brain power. You could call me pretty or kind or funny, but nothing was as satisfying as calling me smart. However, my idetic memory had brought me neither fortune nor fame as I thought it might. All that was about to change when I qualified to attend an in-person audition for the TV game show Jeopardy. Friends and family had long told me I should be on the show, and though I would mutter a ma-comble oh gee, I don't know I knew in my heart I could be the next Ken Jennings. My invitation to try out for the show was the result of passing an online test. All this happened pre-pandemic. Nowadays the process is done online, but at the time the next level tryouts were held in various metropolitan areas around the country.

I went to Washington DC At a fancy DC hotel. In the audition room about 50 other people were also waiting for their chance to say mammals for 200 pleas. We mingled about introducing ourselves and making small talk. I was mildly intimidated by my competitors lawyers, lobbyists, scientists. I m a hospital chaplain, a fact which at least caused the room to take notice of me. As this is not a profession. Often, if ever, represented on the show, I gave myself a pep talk. Okay, so he s a microbiologist, but how much does he know about opera? The Jeopardy team walked in and cheerfully congratulated us on making it this far.

We began by taking a long and comprehensive written test covering everything from the location of the CN Tower, toronto, to the name of Beyonce s first child, blue Ivy. I almost knew every answer. We took a break while our tests were graded In the restroom. I chatted with one of the coordinators as we washed our hands at the sink. You did very well, she said. I was stoked.

Back in the test room, we were called up three at a time, to play a mock version of the game, complete with buzzers and the iconic blue screen. I was in the very first group called. I decided it was a sign. Maybe it meant that I had the highest score on the written test. I walked to the front of the room, buzzer in hand, with two other contestant wannabes. The screen lit up with the categories and dollar amounts. First up was famous names for $100. This pioneer nurse founded a hospital at Andersonville Prison Camp during the Civil War.

Eager to show my stuff, i buzzed in immediately and responded confidently Who is Florence Nightingale? That's incorrect, said the host. I was wrong. Then the microbiologist hit his button. Who was Clara Barton?

I uttered a frustrated and spontaneous poop, poop. The word hung in the air. Play stopped. Everyone looked at me.

One of the coordinators said without a hint of compassion or irony one does not say poop on jeopardy. Most jeopardy contestants are fairly expressionless, neither rejoicing nor disparaging over their answers. This wasn't Wheel of Fortune, after all, where contestants frequently scream with delight and do end zone dances behind their podium. I apologized and fumbled for my composure. Note to self rain in your natural animation. The next answer was red and I tensed. I felt nervous. My brain was not in the moment. My confident I got this persona evaporated. Even when I managed to give a few correct answers, my buzzer was hesitant, my voice weak and strangled. I was so fearful of making another error and uttering another, maybe worse, expletive. I overcompensated in an attempt to make up for my poop faux pas.

Well, i wasn't called to be on the show. It took me exactly one question to take myself out of the running. My dream of becoming the next Ken Jennings was dashed. I felt deflated. I'd not get to show off in front of a national TV audience. The smartest kid in the room had to tell all the people she had alerted about her Jeopardy tryout that no, she did not qualify. I still watch Jeopardy Like the true fan I am. I still curse at the contestants When not one of them knows the badger is the state animal of Wisconsin or that Thomas Hardy wrote tests of the Durbervilles. Sometimes, after I make a particularly stunning run of correct answers while watching the show, my husband will turn to me and bemoan the fact that I would be famous if I'd only kept my mouth shut. Yeah, maybe I'm waiting for a category called four letter words. Up on the blue screen would appear palindrome meaning excrement. I know what to say.

0:09:49 - Speaker 4

Okay, so definitely my favorite thing about this story is her voice, just even her like, like the sound of her voice, the tone of her voice, her funniness. everything about her voice is so was so charming.

0:10:04 - Speaker 2

I wrote the exact same thing Voice, voice, voice. Oh gee, I don't know. I was stoked Rain in your natural animation. I just thought that was so good. She's such a likable narrator, like who likes smart people. You know, like these people going into jeopardy are usually so pompous, but she's so not.

0:10:23 - Speaker 4

True. Also, what I really loved about her in terms of like likable narrator is she told us that she's always the smartest in the room. I loved hearing that. How often do women say that? Never.

0:10:40 - Speaker 2

Well, I've never said it.

0:10:42 - Speaker 4

Good reason, Sure don't say that anymore. No, you're the smartest in the room, but you're also the only one in your room.

0:10:52 - Speaker 2

Exactly. Well, now I'm in the room with you and Matt, our producer.

0:10:56 - Speaker 4

But we're all at our own rooms, though, since we're on, yeah, we're all the smartest. So I love that. She said that. I just that is. I am cheering for her from the start with that. That was good. What I think is so interesting is like every word matters, like that's one of our writing tips Every word matters, like every word in a story really has to belong in that story or take it out, and what I love is that in this case, it's like a life lesson and a writing lesson, because the word poop mattered. That was the one word that mattered. I love that. I love that about the story. Yeah, it was so good, It was charming. Let me see what else. Oh, what does idetic mean?

0:11:42 - Speaker 2

Whoops, I needed to look that up. You're asking somebody not on Jeopardy. I'm sure Ken Jennings knows I need to look that up before we started. Yeah, maybe photographic. Maybe she remembers everything Like a memory that just retains.

0:11:57 - Speaker 4

Yeah, that would be what I think, Yeah, My idetic memory had not brought me fame. Anyway, that's funny. What else I loved is like mammals for 200, please Like. She used the language of Jeopardy throughout. I don't know if everyone knows the language of Jeopardy, I don't know if you have to know it to feel like excited by it, but I do know it. So excited me. The blue screen. She really explained Jeopardy in a way that brought me in The end also. I thought the end was so like For sure, Again she's using the language of Jeopardy and then she says let me go to it. She says I'm waiting for a category called four letter words. Did you know it?

0:12:45 - Speaker 2

was coming. Did I know it was coming? only because I've read this a couple of times? I did, But when I first read it because I was like, what is the story about? What is the story about? Is it more than a situation? And I mean I'm not sure, because do we know how losing affected her life? Does she know how she's changed? Do we know any of that? It's very subtle.

0:13:08 - Speaker 4

Yeah, that's true, she actually makes a joke out of it in the end, and I really did like the joke. So up on the blue screen would appear palindrome, meaning excrement. So then her word.

0:13:22 - Speaker 2

But yeah, I get what you're saying, so maybe it's telling us that next time. So I've learned that when you're on a show you have to follow their rules or you're out.

0:13:34 - Speaker 4

But I do want to talk about this for a second. What are the stakes? I mean the stakes in this case are she lost or she didn't lose, but she didn't get to participate?

0:13:45 - Speaker 2

To me, the stakes were everybody has always said you should go on Jeopardy, you should go on Jeopardy. So they've made assumptions about her that she's extremely smart and can win. So yes, she's extremely smart. She got all the way to the show but she didn't get on. So does she feel like somewhere she failed? It's great that she has a word that she can say well, I fucked up here. So maybe in the end it's like she never got to really see if she could be the next Ken Jennings. but she kind of has an excuse and can now make a joke of how she may really be feeling, which we don't know. Yeah, maybe.

0:14:24 - Speaker 4

Or not, Or maybe this is just a later story. It's not a life or death story. She's not going to live or die based on whether or not she wins. I don't think that she really cares about getting written famous. And how written famous would she have gotten right if she were on the show? A couple million dollars can change your life.

0:14:46 - Speaker 2

Is that how much you would win. You can win that. Yeah, there's some of these people who have won. I mean you gotta be like Holtz Hauer or whatever his name is. I mean he's on now on this master's champion. It's crazy. But I mean these guys, i don't even know how they're so smart. It's crazy how they know.

0:15:02 - Speaker 4

But the truth is she didn't set it up that she was destitute and needed this money. No, so she was just saying I understood like rich and famous as kind of like a yay, i could become rich and famous if I went on Jeopardy, but if I don't win on Jeopardy I'm not gonna be. I'll still be fine. You know poor and no one's gonna know me ever. Yeah.

0:15:22 - Speaker 2

So she doesn't have her whole self worth and value wrapped up into this. It was just something fun And now she moves on with her life and she, you know, tried it and that's the end of it. So it could be that It could be more, we don't know.

0:15:34 - Speaker 4

But what I like about the story is that it's like it's so charming and it's so fun to listen to And we learn about Jeopardy and we hear this like, ah, this faux palm moment, you know like dang it. And I totally relate to doing shit like that. I mean poop like that And I don't know I get it Shit. Oh yeah, we should say that at the beginning. It's where we work out our whoop. Whoop Doesn't sound as, but anyway. So I love that about this story. Like every story doesn't have to be about like drugs and death and It's true, it's a nice light one.

0:16:15 - Speaker 2

All right, thank you for listening and thank you, Laurie Eynon, for sharing your story with us. She likes the pain.

0:16:23 - Speaker 1

I love eating. I don't get jaded. I work too hard. I wanna be famous. I never let my guard down. I think what happened was I thought it bring us happiness.

0:16:45 - Speaker 2

Writing Class Radio is hosted by me, alison Langer, and me, andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundle, evan Serminsky, chloe Emont Lane and Aiden Glassy at the Sound Off Media Company. Be music by Marnino Toussaint. There's more Writing Class on our website, writingclassradiocom, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Join our community by following us on Patreon. If you wanna write with us every week, you can join our First Draft Weekly Writers Group. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12 to one Eastern time, and we have a new First Draft option, which is Thursday nights 8 to 9 pm Eastern with Eduardo Wink. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you are a business odor, entrepreneur, community activist or a group that needs healing and wanna help your team write better, we can help. Check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradiocom. Join the community that comes together for instruction and excuse to write and, most importantly, the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

0:17:57 - Speaker 4

There's no better way to understand ourselves than each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

0:18:07 - Speaker 1

Big breaks to the back. We gon' get that Shining like I was a ghetto bird. I don't wanna leave the ghetto birds, but so that.

0:18:17 - Speaker 2

I need ya. Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

0:18:25 - Speaker 3

Women of ill repute. That's our podcast And we think it's a compliment, cause it is a compliment. Who wants to be boring and follow other people's rules? So we listen to others and there's lots of podcasts for comedians. they sound like journalists these days, and now on our podcast we've got a journalist and a comedian me, wendy Mesley, and my pal Maureen Holloway. You can guess who's a comedian. We team up for smart talk with some brave women, or maybe it's brave talk with smart women. Anyway, women of ill repute. You decide It's a comedy show or journalism. So you can check us out on Apple Podcasts, google Podcasts, spotify or at womenofillreputecom.

Show Notes Episode 154: Are Thin People Allowed To Write About Weight?

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Sari Botton. Sari’s story is a great example of how to tell a story that encompasses your whole life. It is also a great example of how to end a story while you are still living with a situation.

Sari has been featured before on WCR. Check out Episode 80. You Have Permission to Write or Not Write. Sari Botton (sounds like Larry Cotton) is the author of the memoir in essays, And You May Find Yourself…Confessions of a Late-Blooming Gen-X Weirdo. A different version of the story you’re about to hear appears in that book. Sari publishes Oldster Magazine, Memoir Monday, and Adventures in Journalism. 

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marnino Toussaint.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Thursdays with Eduardo Winck 8-9pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. 

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

0:00:19 - Speaker 2

I'm Allison Langer.

0:00:21 - Speaker 3

I'm Andrea Askowitz and this is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories here. We produce this podcast, which is Equal Parts Heart and Art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. You know I don't know if we say this and have been saying this for like eight years I really, really, really feel this is so true The craft of writing in the heart, yeah, We have found the craft yeah.

Like I am so committed to the heart and art of writing, just wanted to say that, no matter what's going on in our lives, writing class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shit. There's no place in the world like writing class, and we want to bring you in.

0:01:12 - Speaker 2

Today on our show we bring you a story by Sari Botton. Sari's been featured before on Writing Class Radio, so check out Episode 80. You have permission to write or not write. That's really good. Sari Botton sounds like Larry Cotton.

0:01:32 - Speaker 3

She says that all the time because it's hard to know how to say her name, because her name is S-A-R-I.

0:01:36 - Speaker 2

But we're saying it, they're not reading it. I know I don't know, but I just wanted it there. It's funny to me. I don't think I can say that with a straight face. You did it. Done. Sari Botton, which sounds like Larry Cotton if you're reading it, is the author of the memoir and essays called and you may find yourself dot dot, dot. Confessions of a Late Blooming Gen X Weirdo. A different version of the story you're about to hear appears in that book. Sari publishes Old Star Magazine, Memoir Monday and Adventures in Journalism. She does a shit ton, yeah, and the links to all those will be in our show notes.

0:02:13 - Speaker 3

So check them out and all of those Old Star Magazine awesome Memoir Monday. It's a curated weekly about what's great out there on the internet and Adventures in Journalism is just like her life stuff. Great, great stuff.

0:02:25 - Speaker 2

This story that we're going to share with you today is a great example of how to tell a story that encompasses your whole life And that ain't easy. Nope. Back with Sari's story after the break.

0:02:38 - Speaker 3

Hey writers, If you're looking for a writing community and you want to go beyond the first draft Writing Class, Radio has two opportunities for a second draft class. We meet Monday Eastern from 12 to 1 and Thursday nights from 8 to 9 Eastern.

0:03:00 - Speaker 2

We also offer a final draft class and that meets every Saturday from 10 to 12.30. The semesters are 10 weeks. To find out more about that.

0:03:11 - Speaker 3

Go to writingclassradio.com and click on the class description Classes tab.

0:03:19 - Speaker 2

Hey, this is Allison, host of Writing Class Radio. I know there are many of you out there who don't have access to a writing group or someone to look over your essay or manuscript. If that's the case, I can help. I'm available to help you whip your essay into shape. I'll read through your draft, offer suggestions, line edits and I'll spend time with you brainstorming for the best possible ending. Be prepared to answer the question what is this story about? Because if you don't know, nobody knows. You know. Sometimes it takes more than a bath or a long walk to figure this out. It takes a brutal editor who will tell you what works, what needs more explaining and what needs to go. For more information, visit writingclassradiocom. Then email Allison at writingclassradio.com, use the code WCR and your first 15 minutes is free.

0:04:15 - Speaker 3

We're back. This is Andrea Ascoitz and you're listening to Writing Class Radio. Up next is Sari Botton reading her story The Weight a Manifesto.

0:04:35 - Speaker 4

Have you been working out? an annoying acquaintance asked after a head-to-toe glance Because you look and hear. She paused Better. The problem was I had been working out, I had lost weight and I hated everything about that. Like just about every woman in America, plus plenty of men and people across the gender spectrum, I've got issues with body image, weight, food and exercise. In my teens and twenties I struggled on and off with anorexia and it warped my relationship to my body and its appetite. When I starved myself I thought it was just another way. I was weird. Now I know our culture has a massive collective eating disorder. The adults around me had been taught to hate their bodies and through constant dieting, worrying aloud about calories, the messages came through loud and clear. Even though I've worked through a lot of that over the past few decades, some of the sickness remains. Lifelong body dysmorphia makes me an unreliable narrator about the state of my figure, but to the best of my understanding, I am not, nor have I ever been, overweight.

I'm petite, a hair under 5 feet, a size 4 or 6, depending on the brand, and curvy, soft-bodied with a full bosom 34D. I was in kindergarten the first time I thought I was fat. My body size and shape were well within a healthy range, according to my doctors, and photographs bear this out, but I was convinced I was fat. I vividly recall my mom showing me professional photos of me. I wore a red cotton summer outfit with a white floral pattern. My cheeks and arms seemed too full and I begged my mom not to show the pictures to anyone else. I look at those photos now and I can't see what I saw then. I had no extra padding. A year later, at 6, I cried about moving up to a bigger underwear size. My parents and grandparents were always trying to fit into smaller sizes and now I was moving in the wrong direction. Our cupboards were filled with tab and sweet and low The freezer with ice milk. I was surrounded by grown-up women who made excuses if they allowed themselves a cookie or a pad of butter on a baked potato. At 7, an adult commented on my ample butt, the part of my body I have struggled to make peace with ever since. Shortly after that, when I got a stomach virus, I experienced a weird sense of empowerment from my ability to go without eating. I was vomiting, but I saw the whole ordeal as a stroke of luck. Maybe if I stopped eating for long enough, I could lose my big butt.

In fourth grade my friends and I began comparing our bodies. I had one friend, lucy, with juvenile diabetes, who went through periods where she was rail thin. Lucy and other girls bragged about their doctors declaring them underweight. The girls reported this like it was an unfortunate situation beyond their control. Who always me underweight again. I just can't keep the meat on my bones. At 14, my body started to develop and suddenly my clothes fit tighter. I was still very much not fat, but I was a few pounds heavier. And I wasn't the only one who noticed You don't eat the cakes and the candies, do you? My step-grandma asked. We were at a family gathering and I desperately wanted something sweet, but I couldn't stand the way my body was massing out, as I'd heard a friend's mother refer to the phenomenon.

In the middle of tenth grade, in the winter of 1981, when I was 15, I decided that I needed to take some action to control this body. First I did the stewardess diet. Breakfast was black coffee something I didn't drink yet and a half grapefruit. Lunch and dinner were different kinds of meat with plain undressed vegetables. After four days of that boring regimen, I didn't feel nearly thin enough.

I went to the library and there, instead of diet books, I was drawn to a young adult novel called The Best Little Girl in the World by Stephen Levin Kron. It was the story of a teen girl who develops anorexia and bulimia. Clearly it was meant to caution young readers against starving themselves, but for me it became a blueprint. I learned all the tricks from Francesca, the main character how to move food around on your plate, how to fool tired parents, how to leave evidence of having eaten breakfast without taking a bite, put cereal crumbs in a bowl and leave it in the sink. The book destroyed my relationship to food and my body forever. I'd skip lunch and walk the school grounds to burn fat. At dinner, I would put a small amount of meat into a large portion of salad, but only eat the vegetables, and at the end of the meal quickly toss the meat into the garbage.

Initially I filled up with water tab, diluted orange juice and tea, and it helped distract me from my hunger. Each time I peed, I imagined fat pouring out of me. A couple of days in, I felt the equivalent of a runner's high from not eating. It was exhilarating to feel so in control to feel empty and light. I had so much energy. I expended it in the evenings, dancing vigorously to the more upbeat songs on Springsteen's The River album. I say dancing but it looked more like awkward aerobics kicking and punching the air, twisting and turning with the objective of working all the fat off of all my parts every evening a ritual.

In a short time I had gotten myself down to 90 pounds from 112. A healthy weight was more like 120. I was very thin. My parents became alarmed. I became alarmed because, even though I knew definitively that I was thinner than was considered healthy, I only wanted to keep losing weight. I confessed to my parents that I'd been starving myself and that I wanted help. They found a therapist who specialized in childhood eating disorders and I started going once a week. My therapist, Evelyn, was a nice woman about my mother's age, in her early 40s. The problem was, Evelyn was skinny. What if she had chosen eating disorders as her specialty because she had one? Conversely, if she was bony by nature, how could she possibly understand what it meant to be afraid to gain weight? She had me keep a running list of everything I ate, which put me at odds with myself The part of me interested in getting well wanted to let this exercise help me.

The part of me interested in staying sick used it to obsess and fret over everything I put in my mouth. I felt split about wanting to get better. I didn't want to die like some of the anorexic kids I'd been told about, but I also didn't want to weigh any more than I currently did. I wanted to weigh even less. In 11th grade I got my first real boyfriend, jason. It seemed only once I'd gotten super thin, my jaw and cheekbones becoming more prominent, that he and other boys noticed me.

In college my metabolism slowed, apparently a homeostasis response to starving. I put on weight while consuming under 1,000 calories per day. So I bought a rusty exercise bike at a yard sale and rode it in my dorm room, sometimes two or three times daily. I didn't get my first full period until 18, and it was a doozy. I was diagnosed with severe endometriosis, which led to hormone treatments that made me develop acne and gain weight. I hated myself, but there was something useful about having a whole other condition to deal with, which made it impossible for me to be impossibly thin. Now I had no choice but to let go at least somewhat, of the need to be super skinny. It was the beginning of becoming less vigilant about my weight, which was a relief. I wasn't all better by any stretch, but endometriosis put me on a path toward a little better, and then a little bit better than that, then a slip, followed by a bit better than before, then a slip, and so on, mostly moving me in a healthy direction.

At 33, I unwittingly adopted a slightly different flavor of eating disorder, one disguised to look like a smart approach to eating orthorexia, which conflates restriction of certain foods with being healthy. A doctor put me on a three-month elimination diet to try and figure out what foods might be making me sick. I eliminated sugar, dairy meat, gluten, alcohol and vinegar, which seemed to help me regulate my very irregular period. Best read. Worst of all, it made me feel in control and healthy. So I just stayed on the diet for years. In my late 40s and early 50s. Injuries I incurred while jogging, plus frequent respiratory illnesses, made it difficult to exercise vigorously, which forced me to switch to less punishing activities and also to accept my body a little bit fuller and rounder Still.

Every now and then I'll go hours fighting to ignore the siren song of the contents of the refrigerator. Most mornings at 11:30, I felt hungry, but wouldn’t allow myself to eat. No lunch until the clock strikes noon, no 12:30. I want to revolt against this baseless decree, but the unreasonable despot I'd be rebelling against is me.

I have a lot of food rules. I'm allowed one square of chocolate per day, or one small gluten-free cookie, likely one that I baked or a tablespoon of ice cream to keep me from feeling too dessert deprived. No full desserts more than once a week, preferably not more than once a month. No per quarter. If I have a carb-heavy lunch, I can't also have a carb-heavy dinner. I keep these rules in my head and know them by rote.

A certified nutrition coach once taught me to ask myself anytime I think I'm hungry. Might I be angry, lonely or tired? Instead, she gave me an acronym by which to remember this line of questioning H-A-L-T halt. This was supposed to be wellness, but it made me doubt my own hunger. Sometimes I think a teaspoon of peanut butter will hold me over, but that only buys me 15 minutes of relief. 20 tops. This is a problem that could easily be solved with a bigger breakfast, but the unreasonable despot in my brain lets me have only small rations of fruit, yogurt and gluten-free muesli for the first meal of the day Another ridiculous rule I'm afraid to break.

I wish now that I could unremember halt along with everything I was ever taught about calories, good food, bad carbs, weight watchers' points and all the other nonsense that runs through my mind. Don't get me wrong I know there are legitimate concerns regarding nutrition and exercise and probably legitimately healthy ways of approaching both, but my history renders me incapable of separating healthy approaches out from harmful ones or from turning the healthy approaches into modes of harm. I wish I could finally permanently let it all go. At 57, I've come a long way and maybe incrementally, over time, the rest will fade from my consciousness. In the meantime, the best thing I can do is treat myself with as much gentleness and kindness as possible, in whatever mode I find myself. Obsessed with my weight and appearance will relax about it, just as necessary as having compassion for everyone else those who infected me with the sickness, the people who insulted me directly or through backhanded compliments. Every one of them was taught to hate their bodies.

0:17:07 - Speaker 3

I am so impressed with this story for a few reasons. The first, I think, is that this narrator admits at the top of the story or pretty early on, and I love how she does it. She says that she has dysmorphia, which makes her an unreliable narrator about this true state of her body, but she shows us what her body looks like in terms of. She gives us her stats really. She tells us her weight and her height and she says that she's not fat. And she continues to tell a whole story about her own issues with food. And I know from my own experience writing a story about my issues with food. If you present as someone who isn't fat, the internet does not like you. But, to Sari's credit, I really like her. I feel like she's a very, very reliable narrator because she tells us she's not. And what I mean by reliable narrator in the terms of writing is that she's giving us her vulnerability, she's telling us how vulnerable she is, and so I trust her.

But it is a very difficult thing to do when you don't present or you don't look fat to the rest of the world, and I wonder about that, like I mean, we can talk about the harshness that I got remember the story I wrote about eating baklava.

Every year, tom DeMarcchi sends me baklava you too, thanks, tom, because I eat so much, I know, I love it so much and I eat so much baklava every time I get it. And it's not just baklava, but in that moment, that one time, it set me off and it made me write the story about being afraid, always being afraid of gaining weight And for so many of the reasons that this narrator felt fear, the comments that she got throughout her whole life. I so understand this narrator. So that's the first reason why I'm so impressed with her. And the other reason is I thought that she did a really, really, really good job, kind of like showing us her entire life through food in a way that I thought was very compelling And gets to the end and really there is no end. And so I thought that's also like we talk a lot about endings And in this case the narrator she admits that she has come a shit ton long way, but she's not healed, she's not cured. I mean, and is anyone ever cured?

0:19:48 - Speaker 2

I mean, she's talking about a subject that many, many people struggle with. I related to so much. Yes, 100%, and just hearing a story where you think, okay, i'm not alone is really important. I think so.

0:20:04 - Speaker 3

Yeah, I want to go through it and note some of the moments that really struck me. She says our culture has a massive eating disorder. She says that sort of at the top of the story and that's kind of higher register. But I think it is so true. She told it to us right after she talked about how everyone compliments her and how hard it was complimenting her when she lost weight. She thought it was just like her issue, but no, it's a massive cultural problem.

0:20:37 - Speaker 2

Well, to bring up a story that you got published in CNN, it's similar to people saying to each other at parties oh my God, you look so young or you look so good, even though they've aged.

0:20:49 - Speaker 3

We have a massive eating disorder in our culture and a massive ageism problem in our culture Massive. Then she gives us such good evidence for her lifelong struggle. In kindergarten she thought she was fat. She shows us the picture of herself And now when she looks back on that picture, she's like what, what did I see? And then at six years old, she cries because she wanted to not be going up in size. That part I thought was so sweet, it was about underwear. But compared to her grandparents and everybody around her, she thought she was moving in the wrong direction And I felt like she gave us this kid perspective in a way that I was like, yeah, I understand, because it was such a kid thinking.

I love that part. Yeah, really good. And then the details of what was in a refrigerator tab, ice milk. We had tab and ice milk. Maybe that's another reason why I particularly really like this story, because so many of the specifics resonated with me, which is like just a this isn't a side, but like sometimes when you're trying to get your story published in a publication, you are you that I'm talking about you, the listener, if you're trying to get your story published, or me as a writer, when I'm trying to get my story published. If an editor is like charmed by something, like the details that come out, then you just have an added advantage. It's subjective, that's my point, but I really love that. And then the as she's getting older, kids are like bragging about being underweight. I could so see that too. Like the. Oh, i just can't keep the weight on my bones.

0:22:34 - Speaker 2

I still say that When I was going through cancer, i'm like I don't know. I'm near eating macadamia nuts, I just can't gain weight And everyone else is like it's true, it couldn't be mean.

0:22:43 - Speaker 3

But yeah, you did do that, Exactly, yeah. And then she talked about and this is what's happening to me right now. At 14, sarah was like suddenly her clothes fit tighter. I'm like at 55. Suddenly my clothes are fitting tighter.

0:23:00 - Speaker 2

They shrink in the closet. Everyone knows that.

0:23:03 - Speaker 3

Oh, in the closet. Yeah, they're shrinking it. Yeah, exact same clothes that I wear every single day because I only have one uniform. Suddenly they're shrinking in the closet. I don't get it. The language massing out I loved her voice there. When she goes to the library and finds this part was so harrowing to me And this is like scary, scary, and maybe this is why she called her story Wait, a Manifesto. In a way she's saying it's a policy declaration or something, because this part said it all. She finds this book called The Best Little Girl in the World, which is supposed to be a cautionary tale about eating, but instead for her it's a blueprint. This book teaches her how to become anorexic. That is so scary. When I first read her story and then when I just heard it now it's like that part, god that is so scary.

0:24:04 - Speaker 2

When I was in college, my mom was doing research on bulimia and anorexia And I was like, oh, that sounds like a good way to lose weight. That's when I started throwing up a little. Yeah, it sucks. Teenagers are just idiots.

0:24:21 - Speaker 3

I mean, i mean, were you reading what your mom was writing? Probably not, she was just telling you.

0:24:26 - Speaker 2

She was telling me And that she would just be like complaining about these other girls and the parents maybe couldn't control them, And I was like, really Well, neither can you.

0:24:36 - Speaker 3

Okay so would your mom say, like they can't even control when their girls are walking to the bathroom and putting their fingers down their throat. And then you were like, oh, that's a great idea. Is that what happened?

0:24:46 - Speaker 2

I mean, I don't remember, but she would be like can you believe this? This is what people do, Don't they care that they're gonna like wrot out their teeth And I'm like skinny teeth. I don't know, Maybe I'll be skinny until I have to get fake teeth. I don't know. Oh Jesus, We're stupid. We're in the moment. We just want to look cute.

0:25:05 - Speaker 3

It's so scary, it's so, so scary The kind of information that kids can get and then how they use it. Ooh, anyway, she continues to take us through her life. She had to keep a list of what she ate, and of course, that sounds like a good idea, maybe, but then it totally fueled her obsession. What she did really well, also in this piece, is and this is very hard to do in writing she held the conflict, so on the one hand, she knew she was at this point, she knew that she was sick, and on the other hand, she wanted to stay sick, and I thought that she did a really good job of showing us both those tensions.

0:25:48 - Speaker 2

I always wonder what's going on in somebody else's world, that they need to stay in control of something. Because I feel it. I really related to that, because she felt really in control when she could lose weight. And I try to think back now where didn't I feel in control? And I feel like teenagers as a whole with the changes going to school, trying to keep up your grades, trying to please your parents, trying to find a good college, then trying to look beautiful online constantly.

Yeah, I mean, we didn't have that, thank God, when we were growing up. That would have just been one more layer, but you do feel totally out of control, and this one thing allowed me to feel in control, and so maybe there's more to it. I mean, what we're hearing now is this, and it's written in a way that we all can relate to, or I can relate to. And it gets my mind wondering I get what you're asking.

0:26:43 - Speaker 3

Yeah, you're asking what's the underlying control?

0:26:48 - Speaker 2

And maybe there was nothing.

0:26:50 - Speaker 3

Or maybe it was just about being a girl at that age Exactly. What about this moment where the narrator talks about orthorexia, that's when she eliminated certain things from her diet in quotes for health? Again, that's an obsession.

0:27:14 - Speaker 2

You're talking to someone who. I see the look on your face. Are you going to chime in? I will chime in Chime. So yeah, I don't eat gluten, I don't eat dairy, I don't eat blah, blah, blah. There's a whole long list of shit. Initially it was because I was battling lots of digestion issues right before I was diagnosed with cancer. And then, once I had cancer, I wanted to make sure that I stayed as healthy as possible no toxins, and it's crazy. It's crazy making for sure. And so now there's always a fear of the cancer coming back. But also, I know, if I can control what I eat and call it health reasons, then it's just easier for me to stay thin.

0:27:59 - Speaker 3

Is it about controlling thinness, or is it about controlling cancer? So for you it's probably both, yeah it's both, so I so get it.

0:28:06 - Speaker 2

But what you're asking is if there was no cancer, would I still be doing this? Probably? Yeah, I can confess. Yes, I wasn't asking that I'm crazy.

0:28:14 - Speaker 3

I wasn't asking that, but thank you for telling the truth. You're a reliable narrator. You know what I'm doing to beat back menopause. I'm exercising so much. I mean, vicky was like Vicky, my wife She's like I think you're becoming obsessed with exercise, like becoming, yeah, more than ever, because I would like go to the pool. We were on a four day vacation and I went to the pool and did like 20 laps of the longest pool I've ever seen, and then then we would go hiking And then sometimes I would want to go back to the pool Like I was nuts on that trip. So I'm having a little bit of a problem right now and it scares me. I mean, one, i don't want to get old, but two, I don't want to be obsessed with exercise. And this narrator also was obsessed with exercise with her rust, the old bike and anyway, she brought me in so many times and I so understood the food rules that she still has now. I want to thank her for admitting that.

0:29:18 - Speaker 2

I know, because I can't wait till we're done so I can get up and get me two gluten free cookies You're allowed to. Sometimes I have three.

0:29:26 - Speaker 3

Really Yeah, proud of you. Because I have food rules too, but it's like one full dessert a day, not one tablespoon. Well, that's why I have to exercise Exactly. See, we're all so fucking nuts.

0:29:41 - Speaker 2

Oh God. Well, I don't think we're going to solve the world's problems, but the reason why this story is so powerful is because there is a problem. It's acceptable. This is an acceptable problem.

0:29:54 - Speaker 3

Maybe because we all share it, all the especially American white women. Why do you have to throw race in? Because I think that other races and other cultures have a different view of body image. I think that you're allowed to be thicker in the black community, for instance, and also in the Latin community. Yeah, oh, I love this moment too, where she said she would get a little better, a little better, slip a little better. And so we know that she's not done with this issue, but I do still think that this story is very, very satisfying. At the end, she actually talks about how so many of us, including the people who insulted her, were also insulted and also have to live in this fat, obsessed culture.

0:30:43 - Speaker 2

I think that the ending, like when people ask a lot like well, how do I end this if I'm still going through it And this is a great example of that She basically just takes us through, like where she is now, and shows us an anecdote or a scene or something that shows us she is still dealing with it and this is how.

0:31:01 - Speaker 3

Thank you, sarah Botten, for sharing your story And thank you for listening. If you love the essay you just heard, you can read more of Sarah Botten in her beautiful memoir and essays, which means it's a memoir put together by a series of essays. Her memoir and essays is called, and You May Find Yourself Confessions of a Late Blooming Gen X Weirdo Anywhere you buy books. We vote that you get it at your local indie. Her favorite is Books and Books.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by me, andrea Asquitz, and me, allison Langer. Audio production by Matt Cundle, evan Serminsky and Aiden Glassy at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marnino Toussaint. There's more Writing Class on our website, writingclassradiocom, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon.

If you want to write with us every week and who doesn't? You can join our first draft weekly writers groups. We have two options to choose from. There's Tuesday's, 12 to 1 Eastern Time with Allison, and we have a new first draft weekly writers group, thursday's, 8 to 9 PM Eastern with Eduardo Wink. So write to a prompt and share what you wrote. It's so much fun. Also, if you're a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist group that needs healing. Someone who wants to help your team write their story, or write their story better. Check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradiocom. Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and, most importantly, the support from other writers. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

0:33:29 - Speaker 2

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

0:33:38 - Speaker 1

To the bag. We gon' get that shining like I was a ghetto bird. I don't wanna leave the ghetto birds, but so that I need ya Just in.

0:33:50 - Speaker 2

Distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

0:33:54 - Speaker 5

Women of Ill Repute. That's our podcast And we think it's a compliment, because it is a compliment. Who wants to be boring and follow other people's rules? So we listen to others and there's lots of podcasts for comedians. They sound like journalists these days, and now on our podcast we've got a journalist and a comedian, me, wendy Mesley, and my pal, maureen Holloway. You can guess who's the comedian. We team up for smart talk with some brave women, or maybe it's brave talk with smart women. Anyway, women of Ill Repute You decide.

It's a comedy show or journalism. So you can check us out on Apple Podcasts, google Podcasts, spotify or at womenofillreputecom.

Show Notes Episode 153: Want To Get Published in HuffPost? Editor Noah Michelson Tells You How

Today’s episode features a story by one of our favorite students, Margery Berger. She has been taking classes with us since way before the pandemic. Margery has told stories on our podcast twice before. Episode 46: An Object Is not Just an Object aired in 2018 features a really compelling story about Margery’s obsession with her scale. On Episode 95: What Did It Take to Finally Get Published? Margery told a story about the time her boyfriend said she has ugly hands. That episode is great because we talked to Margery about what holds her back. 

Margery submitted this story to the Huffington Post and editor Noah Michelson (@NoahMichelson on Twitter) picked it up. Her story is called, I Hated My Breasts and Was Afraid to Show Them to Dates. Here’s What Happened When I Did.

We also bring you an interview with Noah Michelson who is the head of HuffPost personal and the host of "D Is For Desire," HuffPost's love and sex podcast. Noah gave Margery this note: “What would someone who didn’t have your experience learn from reading your story?” Because of Noah Michelson, we’re thinking about stories in a new way. Maybe you will too.  

Margery Berger is the mother of two grown children. She lives in Miami with her two poorly behaved dogs and David. She has written for Home Miami Magazine, Lip Service, Next Tribe and for the Writing Class Radio podcast. Find her on IG: @wherestulipnow

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, Chloe Emond-Lane, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marnino Toussaint.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join Allison on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Zorina Frey Wednesdays 7-8pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. 

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

0:00:18 - Andrea Askowitz

I'm Andrea Askowitz. 

0:00:20 - Zorina Fry

I'm Zorina Fry. 

0:00:22 - Allison Langer

And I'm Allison Langer, this is. Writing Class Radio, where you'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, writing class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our sheet. There's no place in the world like writing class, and we want to bring you in. Today's episode features a story by one of our favorite students, Marjorie Berger. She is rockin'. We love her like crazy, right? 

0:01:08 - Andrea Askowitz

I love her so much. I actually can't remember a time before Marjorie was in our class. 

0:01:28 - Allison Langer

I remember when she first came and it was at the Low Art Museum. We were. They were sharing their space with us and it was really cool at the UM And she came in and I'm like who's this lady? You know I don't like new people. 

0:01:40 - Andrea Askowtiz

Oh, you know what I remember? Yeah, we had a double, like we had a three hour class in the morning and then we had lunch. We got lunch donated by that Indian place, and then Marjorie came, and she came for the morning and then she signed up for the afternoon. That was it. She was hooked from the first day. 

0:01:57 - Zorina Fry

See, i associate Marjorie with food, the very thin lady who always feeds us sweets. 

0:02:07 - Allison Langer

Because she's an amazing chef. 

0:02:09 - Zorina Fry

She really is. 

0:02:10 - Allison Langer

Remember when you had that, when you were leaving town and she had that awesome dinner at her house. 

0:02:15 - Andrea Askowtiz

Oh yeah. 

0:02:16 - Zorina Fry

Yeah, yeah, she made her own bread like sourdough bread. Yeah, She could have just served that and I would have been like thank you. 

0:02:26 - Andrea Askowtiz

I'm never going to let Marjorie leave class because she makes me feel like writing class radio is really a community, and also because I love her and also because she's a great writer and she makes great food. She. this is the third story she's told on writing class radio. The first one was on episode 46. That episode is called an object is not just an object. that was way back in 2018. And she told the story about her scale. Oh God, i love that story. And then again, like two years ago, on episode 95, the episode's called What did it take to finally get published? She told the story about when her boyfriend, david, told her she had ugly hands. But what's cool about that episode episode 95, is we have an interview with Marjorie about like, what the hell, what the hell, marjorie, of all these great stories, what is holding you back from sending them out? But what's frickin cool is that a few months ago, october 2022, marjorie sent the story that we're going to hear today out And it was originally published in the Huffington Post. So proud of Marjorie. 

0:03:35 - Zorina Fry

Yeah, that's huge. Congratulations, Marjorie. 

0:03:39 - Andrea Askowtiz

Yeah, yeah. So after we hear Marjorie tell her story, another cool thing has happened on this episode. I got Noah Michelson, who is head editor of HuffPost personal, on the horn And I talked to him about why he picked Marjorie's story, what he's looking for in general. Basically, though, he said this thing, that that I, that I want to talk about a lot after we talk about Marjorie's story, which is. He said this to Marjorie. He gave this note, which is how would someone who didn't experience this experience, what would that person learn from your story? I just think that that note. How do you write a story that is more universal than just what did you learn? I sort of changed my way of thinking about stories. Yeah, and I talked to Noah about that And I want us to talk about that too. Nice, so stay tuned. 

0:04:35 - Zorina Fry

Marjorie Berger is the mother of two grown children. She lives in Miami with her two poorly behaved dogs and David. She has written for Home Miami Magazine, lip service, the next tribe and for the writing class radio podcast. Find her on Instagram at where'stooloopnow. 

0:04:55 - Allison Langer

Oh my God, that's so cute Where'stooloopnow. We left out her grandbaby, who is like the love of her life. So she is the mother of two grown children and a grandbaby, that's true. 

0:05:05 - Zorina Fry

Noah And one to come, one on the way We'll be back with Marjorie Berger's story after the break. 

0:05:14 - Andrea Askowtiz

Hey, writers, if you're looking for a writing community and you want to go beyond the first draft writing class, radio has two opportunities for a second draft class. We meet Thursdays Eastern from 12 to 1 and Monday nights from 8 to 9 Eastern. 

0:05:35 - Allison Langer

We also offer a final draft class and that meets every Saturday from 10 to 12 30. 

0:05:42 - Andrea Askowtiz

The semesters are 10 weeks To find out more about that, go to writingclassradiocom and click on the classes tab. Hey listeners, Andrea, here I have a podcast recommendation for you. It's called The Shit No One Tells You About Writing. There are three industry insiders, two literary agents and a bestselling author, and they cover all things no one tells you about writing. They talk about the craft of writing, the business of writing, publishing, and they give you words of wisdom constantly for wherever you're at in your writing career. The Shit No One Tells You About Writing and has that for a title. You can find it anywhere. You get your podcasts. 

0:06:34 - Zorina Fry

We're back. I'm Zarena Frye and this is Writing Class Radio. Here is Marjorie Burger with her story called I Hated My Breast and Was Afraid to Show Them to Date. Here's What Happened When I Did. 

0:06:54 - Margery Berger

I had a double mastectomy when I was 40 years old in 1997. I was married and had two children under the age of 11. Cutting off my breasts when I didn't have cancer seemed radical, but it wasn't radical to me. I have the BRCA1 gene mutation. That means I have a 60% chance of getting ovarian cancer and an 85% chance of getting breast cancer the deadly kind that doesn't respond to treatment. For me those odds felt like 100% Before genetic testing was available. My mother got ovarian cancer when she was 62, and a few years later she died. Then two of my cousins got breast cancer before they were 60, and both of them died. So I got a prophylactic hysterectomy and a double mastectomy. Now I'm 64 and I know I made the right decision because I'm alive. 

Before the surgery I spoke to a few other women who had mastectomies. They told me how it hurt to lift their arms after the procedure and how it took months to stretch their skin to accommodate the implants used to make reconstructed breasts. None of that scared me. I knew that a cancer diagnosis and chemotherapy and death were, of course, much worse. I had the surgery and then took my son to his first day of kindergarten three days later, with surgical drains hiding under an oversized shirt. I didn't ask the plastic surgeon how my breasts would look after the reconstruction. I even thought they would look better, fuller, like they did before I nursed two babies. I was wrong. My implants are nothing like the ones many women get to look and feel sexier Mine, the kind you get when the surgeon scrapes every bit of breast tissue out or right under the skin. The skin covering the implants is thin and taut and cold to the touch, a different temperature than the rest of my body. 

It turns out that breast reconstruction after a radical mastectomy is a difficult process. After the initial surgery, I had surgery six more times over the next 15 years to deal with the pain caused by scar tissue and also to make my boobs look more normal. Three times the plastic surgeons attached fake nipples made from skin taken from my pubic area, and they always fell off within a month of the surgery. My boobs were ugly and I hated to let anyone see them. Even doctors couldn't hide their disgust. When I went to the dermatologist once a year for a skin cancer screening, I reminded him about my mastectomies and reconstruction to avoid the slightest change in his facial expression, like I saw the last time he opened my paper gown After the surgery. I shut the door when I took a shower or turned away from my husband when I changed my clothes in front of him. I never asked him if he wanted to see or feel my boobs, nor did he ask. I kept my t-shirt on during sex for the remaining 12 years of our marriage and we never talked about it. 

After my divorce and more reconstructive surgery, my breasts now with tattooed nipples where the flesh one should have been looked better, but they still weren't normal. They were too hard and too cold. When I started dating it had been 30 years since I was with a man other than my husband. I was anxious about intimacy, about letting a man see or touch my over 50 body, but my breasts made me consider it never dating again. When I told the first man I dated how taking my shirt off made me uncomfortable, he said you never have to take your shirt off for me. We'll play shirts and skins like in a pick up basketball game. Mostly that's what we did for five years. 

Three years ago, when I started seeing David, I went over to his house for dinner. We were standing in his kitchen talking and singing. We were drinking a vodka cranberry for me and a scotch for him. He looked at me and said I'm dying to kiss you and leaned in for the kiss. I kissed him back. It felt good. As the kissing got more passionate, we moved to the couch. A few minutes in I pulled away and put my hand on his chest. 

My anxiety was growing. I needed to give him my rehearsed speech. I thought about giving it sooner, like on our first date, but that seemed too early. Or afterwards in a text message before our second date. Now I felt I had no choice but to tell him mid-kiss. Before he reached for my breasts, I had a double mastectomy and reconstructive surgery because I have a genetic mutation that causes breast cancer and ovarian cancer. I told him. I assured him I didn't have cancer. I mentioned that Angelina Jolie didn't have cancer either, but had done the same thing. I had the surgery years before Jolie, but most people are familiar with her experience. 

I was afraid that my speech about dying and ugly boobs would be a buzzkill, but I needed to warn him so he wouldn't be surprised at what he saw or touched. I felt the familiar panic I always had when I gave my speech. I worried that the man I was starting to like would be disappointed or repulsed. My armpits were sweaty and I hoped that my deodorant was working. Don't worry, I've seen women with implants before. He said Not my kind of implants. I replied In the direct, matter-of-fact way that I'm now used to. He said let's get this over with, and gently lifted my t-shirt over my head. I helped him unhook my bra. He looked at my boobs quickly said they're gorgeous and though I didn't believe him, we continued to kiss. 

Since then I've discussed my insecurity about my breasts with David many times. I am not the same person who hid under a t-shirt for so long and never told her ex-husband how afraid she was that he wouldn't desire or love her. After a double mastectomy, i wasted years after the surgery hating and hiding my breasts, but I don't blame myself. I grew up in a looks-obsessed culture that made me think I had to look like Angelina Jolie. I'm happy that Jolie told the world that she has the brachagine mutation and had prophylactic surgery, because she may have saved some lives. Maybe her reconstruction looks better than mine and maybe she wasn't afraid to take her shirt off afterwards. 

I was because our culture makes women feel like they have to look perfect. Now I see my breasts as just another imperfection, like the wrinkles on my knees or the age spots on my forearms, and they don't make me more or less lovable. My reconstructed breasts no longer feel like a secret I have to hide. David has normalized my chest for me because he touches me frequently and without hesitation When he touches my breasts and tells me he loves them. I have started to believe him, not because I think my boobs are beautiful or even just okay, but because they're part of me. I showed David the real me by taking my shirt off, but I learned that discussing my insecurities was what really mattered. Now, when David and I spoon and he reaches his arm over my back and rests his hand on one of my breasts, i relax into his touch and fall asleep. 

0:14:56 - Andrea Askowtiz

I really think that the crux of this whole story, like the most beautiful part, is this very end, and I want to see what you guys think. But when Marjorie says I showed David the real me by taking my shirt off, but I learned that discussing my insecurities was what really mattered, and that is the part that anyone who didn't have this experience can learn from Basically, i feel like she's telling the world discuss your insecurities. That's the real. That's really what it means to take your shirt off. 

0:15:35 - Zorina Fry

Can I first just say, before we dig into the story, how much of a badass this writer is. 

0:15:43 - Andrea Askowtiz

Okay. 

0:15:44 - Zorina Fry

Number one like what she's talking about, what she did, and then to tell the story Like that alone just needs to be recognized and applauded. Number two I scribbled in my margins here. I heart David because I see like this is not the first story that Marjorie has written about with him in it And he just seems to be this lovable person who just seems to like every piece of her body, like literally, because since she wrote about her Except her hands. 

Right, she's got this little series going of needful things like this of her body anyway, but yeah, so I just wanted to say those two things. 

0:16:29 - Allison Langer

I'm always about the ending right And what the narrator is really struggling with. So not just the situation, and I feel like it took me a really long time to understand what the difference between situation and story is. But I do think it makes the difference in getting published and also having people really love your story. And here she did this amazing job of not just finding the bigger picture, like the insecurities and talking, but that she didn't keep telling us the same thing over and over. She sort of you could see the gradual incline of knowledge and understanding in each relationship. She did something slightly different, but she really wasn't just talking about breast cancer, she was talking about how it really impacted her life and we see the growth. But then when she throws in the insecurity at the very end and that's like discussing that, so she sort of wraps everything up, but without it sounding like a wrap up. And I know I'm like off. You know like Andrea has this face, she's looking at me like what are you trying to say? But so let me just use an example. So my Esplica sorry, my reconstructive breast no longer felt like a secret I have to hide. 

First of all. That is another thing. Insecurities and secrets. We carry them around with us so much, thinking people aren't gonna like us for them and they're gonna make fun of us From middle school, elementary school, all the way up to now. Right, we're so afraid to share, but every time you and I have talked about this many, many times, and with Serena too, is that when we do share, people are drawn towards us, not away from us, and so what I see here is her examples of showing us that, yes, the other guy said shirts and skins, they managed it, but she didn't deal with it. 

0:18:19 - Andrea Askowtiz

She had kept it secret. Well, when you're keeping your shirt on for 12 years in your marriage and then you're dating someone and you're playing shirts and skins, she was obviously shirts. 

0:18:29 - Allison Langer

Yes, because she's so afraid somebody's not gonna like her. 

0:18:32 - Andrea Askowtiz

Yeah, totally Okay, i'm with you now. Yeah, she was keeping the secret. Yes, yeah, in a managed way. 

0:18:38 - Allison Langer

So meeting David and she there's probably a million other Davids out there that would have been equally as accepting probably almost all the Davids out there, And if they weren't the Davids then they shouldn't have been in her life anyway right, If they actually gave two shits about this shit. So the fact that he touched her and without hesitation, and she warmed up to it and was like, okay, I'm okay, They played a game and he did it correctly, Yeah, So she was able to let go. So I think it's just a really good lesson in picking your friends and picking your spouses and picking the people you wanna be with. Like that you are who you are And they're just gonna have to accept it or get rid of them, right? So I love that. 

0:19:19 - Andrea Askowtiz

See, I love David in this too. I don't think David is the hero here, because it's probably true what you just said, that if our narrator was open and able to discuss her insecurities, then all of the men before this one would have also been cool And she would have felt liberated because it was her own holding onto the secret. That's what she's telling us. at the end, I learned that discussing my insecurities was what really mattered. 

0:19:48 - Allison Langer

Yeah, no matter what your insecurities is, i'm gonna say because I think that sometimes we all of us need a push. We need somebody that we can trust, that we throw it out there and it actually works. So there's probably a million examples she can tell you of a time she shared an insecurity and somebody threw it back in her face And it hurt. So those people aren't meant to be in your life. It's time to get rid of them. If you can't trust them with your secrets and your insecurities, they should not be in your life. Period, the end. That's how I feel at this age. Maybe took 50, 54. Now I agree with you. Why are you yelling No? no, because I get. You know how I get. I get so excited about something And I'm just really like I really, you know, after spending-. 

0:20:28 - Andrea Askowtiz

If you can't deal with my secrets, fuck you All. 

0:20:31 - Allison Langer

Right, i'm out, so I'm in, though I can deal with your secrets, like I just spent a whole afternoon at high school, you know, subbing, and the day before and now that I'm doing that, i'm seeing these kids. And it's not that I don't see my own kids, but all of the kids and the kids we took to Guatemala. Everyone is holding onto secrets, so worried people are not going to like them. 

0:20:50 - Zorina Fry

Why, speaking of kids, what's so tender about this story is that it brings me back to like a first love, you know, like the whole making out, and then it's like, oh, it's time to show each other what we got. And it's just like she's so shy And she, the way she just describes just her insecurity, just kind of reminds me of that little you know. You know teenage love. 

0:21:17 - Andrea Askowtiz

That moment when she puts her hand on David's chest and she like, kills the moment, she's afraid she's going to kill the moment She goes into a rehearse speech. 

0:21:25 - Zorina Fry

Yeah, and what that rehearse speech was. It was like an exposition of what the deal was with her. You know that snaps us back into the moment and any type of romanticism that was going on is just like the record scratched right. Oh my God, was she sad. Was she sad? And I'm still like. I'm still eye hard, david, because you know he answered, he just responded the right way, he was the right sounding board for her. 

0:21:57 - Andrea Askowtiz

I heart David, I just heart Marjorie. More I don't think you do, I do. I heart David, I do. 

0:22:05 - Allison Langer

I love David, i love that he was cool, But it always goes back to the narrator. You know what is to say about the narrator, So I think that's why Andrea's high hearted. 

0:22:14 - Andrea Askowtiz

Marjorie. 

0:22:15 - Allison Langer

Exactly Thank you In her defense Right. Thank you. 

0:22:18 - Zorina Fry

I want to go back to just the description. Like that just made me just cringe for the narrator She's talking about, oh my goodness, like the nipples fell off and the doctor was disgusted. Like, come on, like the doctor is supposed to be the person who's seen it all And there that person is disgusted, i mean. So of course there's going to be some insecurities on top of anything that else that she had going on. 

0:22:48 - Andrea Askowtiz

She built a very good case for her insecurity there. Excellent, well done. Good writing, great details. 

0:22:57 - Zorina Fry

The other thing was the description of her breast reconstruction. She, i mean this girl is keeping it real, because society makes it seem like it's just a thing that you go in for to have done, or I had some work done and you know, now I'm great. Look at me and Parkie, all this type of you know stuff, and that's not the case. Like someone said, that it was hard to lift their arms. You know, she just really brought the realness and what it means to you know, get your breast done. 

0:23:31 - Allison Langer

You know She sacrificed vanity for life. She did. 

0:23:36 - Andrea Askowtiz

But what I think is so interesting, or one thing that I learned, was that a double mastectomy, full on to deal with the possibility of cancer, is different than a boob job. They scrape out all the skin, So you start with nothing, and so getting reconstructive surgery in her case was different, and I didn't know that. I mean, she didn't know it either. She thought she was just going to get some perky boobs put on, exactly. So I think that's a very important lesson for the world, what she went through was different. 

0:24:10 - Zorina Fry

Yeah, i mean, she educated us on so many things, yeah, and while bringing us into her world and into her mind. It's just such a well-written story And I remember hearing versions of this, so I was really I was so proud to see this out in the world. I was just curious to see what the final, final, final draft will look like, or final copy. 

0:24:37 - Andrea Askowtiz

That's cool because you and we've all been through lots of revisions of this story with Marjorie And she's had it focused in different ways, like on all the operations. This one now is really about secrets. It's really about her vulnerability Or, like what she came to say is that it's really important to be emotionally vulnerable. I mean, she's been working with this situation for many years. Before we get to Noah Michelson. I know that that part. right there, I showed David the real me by taking my shirt off, but I learned that discussing my insecurities was what really mattered. That came about because we know that Marjorie learned that she was OK with her breasts and that she was OK with David because David was so cool with her breasts. But that line right, there was Noah pushing her one step further. I love that that came through. 

0:25:34 - Allison Langer

I love it. And I just want to say this before we get to hear from Noah is that sometimes we think our story's done and it's not. And it took years for her to figure this out, even after she started writing it, And that's why it's getting published now And that's why she finally came to this, because it took this long. 

0:25:52 - Zorina Fry

That's a good point. It's true, you know, sometimes a story is not done because the writer's not done dealing with whatever issue it is at hand. 

0:26:01 - Allison Langer

Copy that We haven't learned the lesson yet Awesome. 

0:26:04 - Andrea Askowtiz

Marjorie Berger for learning that lesson. Yeah, we got to take our shirts off all the way. By shirt, I mean like open our heart. We got that. 

0:26:15 - Zorina Fry

We got that. 

0:26:16 - Allison Langer

I was like you want to see that right now on camera. We all thought it My boobs have a face for radio. 

0:26:23 - Andrea Askowtiz

Yeah, mine too. Up next is Noah Michelson. He is the coolest. He really is known in the writer circles for being very responsive. I mean, seriously, he's a beloved. I got a fast rejection, immediate, immediate rejection. I mean, he just flies through his emails. He's awesome. So I love him. So many writers love him. He started off as a poet, zarina, and now he is the head of HuffPost Personal And he's also the host of the podcast, which I love, called D Is For Desire. Here's my conversation with Noah Michelson about what he looks for and why he does what he does. So what drew you to Marjorie Berger's story, like what made you say yes? 

0:27:16 - Margery Berger

We were doing a project called Busted for October, which was all kinds of people women, non-binary, even men possibly talking about their relationship with their breasts for breast cancer awareness month, and not just about breast cancer but just sort of. You know, it's still a taboo topic in some ways to have really smart, honest conversations about our bodies, especially that area of the body. There's still so much about it that our culture loves to deride or fixate on, and so we want to just keep telling in their own words, their own stories about their lives. And when Marjorie wrote me I was like this is super interesting. Someone who's obviously been on a really long journey to sort of understand how she felt about herself had some really low lows and then found a way to sort of make peace with what had happened to her. And that's what I love in a story I love a journey, I love a transformation, I love a lesson learned And I love something that the reader can learn right along with the author as well. 

0:28:22 - Andrea Askowtiz

Well, did you know that breast reconstruction after a double mastectomy was a different procedure than breast augmentation that a woman might want to do to make her boobs bigger and sexier? Did you know that? 

0:28:39 - Margery Berger

I did, because the thing about this job is that I get invited into people's lives in these really intimate ways, but often my own life ends up syncing up with them, and so I've had family members who've gone through something very similar, and so I'm intimately aware of this, and I know how hard it can be for a person usually a woman to deal with this, to have your entire way you see yourself radically change overnight, literally overnight. And so, yeah, i did know about this, but I also knew that a lot of people don't know about this. Not another thing. I don't know that what I do is a service exactly, but I do like to think that people do learn things that maybe they didn't know, and that I sometimes think of how post-personal is like a Trojan horse in a way, because you're getting a really good story And you just sort of along for the ride And then by the end you're like, oh wait, i didn't know that this was a thing. 

0:29:34 - Andrea Askowtiz

So are you saying, all this other stuff pours out? Is that what you mean? 

0:29:38 - Margery Berger

Exactly, and also that you just we used to say about HuffPost in general that you get your vitamins with your junk food, and that's what I like to think it sort of happens with HuffPost. Personal, too, i think Marjorie's story is we get people in with a headline about how she hated her breasts and she was afraid to go on dating, but then you get in and you're like, oh, this isn't a tawdry piece, this isn't a clickbait piece. This is a real person's life And she's talking about it in really open and honest ways. So I love that. I love that both can sort of exist. It can be a great story, but we can also learn from it at the same time. 

0:30:13 - Andrea Askowtiz

So cool. My second question is about that learning piece that I know you as an editor are really interested in And I know specifically because Marjorie and I are friends and she's one of my students And she was like listen to what Noah wants now And tell me if I got this right. What would someone who didn't have this experience learn by reading your story? Is that what you asked, or something like that? 

0:30:39 - Margery Berger

Yeah, something just like that. And a lot of my authors are first time authors or people who've never written anything before, who just have a great story, And so they originally come to me with a great story And then I say this is great, But how do we take this to the next level? So what can a reader and we have hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of readers reading a story which is really incredible, What will a person who's living in Topeka, Kansas, or who's living in London, England, who doesn't know anything about this, what can they learn from this? I think that takes a story from the personal, which is great, but to the universal, And so I think, whenever we can, look for ways that we can connect to other people because that's so much of what I feel like I'm on this earth before to help people tell stories. 

But also, how do I connect to people? How do I connect people? So, anytime I can have an author, take it beyond just the thing that they experienced in their own home, in their own life, in their own hospital room. How do we then explode that out and say you might not think that this relates to you, but I bet there's something here that you can learn from this, or you can say I felt that way too. 

0:31:50 - Andrea Askowtiz

So I've been writing stories for 20 years. I've been teaching for probably 15. And I've always thought that the way to elevate a story is to take it from this is a situation, but to elevate it. This is what I learned, but you elevated it twice. It wasn't just what Marjorie learned, because at first she learned that she's okay with her breasts as they are, but what she learned learned because of your prodding is that the real revealing of herself, the real getting naked, was an emotional, verbal nudity. 

0:32:31 - Margery Berger

Completely yes, and there are so many. I mean, you know this as a writer, you know this as a teacher. There are so many things that happen when we sit down to tell our story And sometimes when we start, we think we know where we're gonna end up and we end up somewhere totally different. Part of the reason that I love writing is because of that alchemy right, that thing that you start with something and by the end of it it's transmuted into something else. Maybe it's not gold, maybe it's something else, and I find that transformation absolutely thrilling and invaluable. So, yes, there can be multiple transformations, and the one that Marjorie had, the two that she had, it just took us from a story something that you would tell your friend happened to you on Saturday to know this was life-changing, and I only sort of realized it when I was looking back on it in this way. 

0:33:22 - Andrea Askowtiz

But this is life-changing for everyone, because if everyone becomes as vulnerable as Ivy came, if everyone talks about their insecurities, they will be okay. 

0:33:35 - Margery Berger

Yes, and we probably won't have these cultural stigmas that we have. Maybe Marjorie wouldn't have felt as bad about herself as she did in the first place If we said bodies come in all kinds of shapes and sizes and they're all great and things are gonna happen to us over our lives. they're gonna change the way we understand our bodies and the way they look, and that's gonna be okay too. 

0:33:56 - Andrea Askowtiz

Yeah, I mean, I just I call me dense or whatever, but I swear I've learned this lesson before. But it took the way that you asked Marjorie to help me as an editor and as a writer see what I'm pushing for in a story. More I just I'm so thank you for that. So you kind of already talked about what you look for in a story. I wanna know when you're looking at a story, reading submissions like what's a fat? no, right away. 

0:34:23 - Margery Berger

Oh, that's such a good question. I think it is a story that's just sort of like. You know, I'll get stories where it's like I really love gardening, here's why I love gardening. I need there to be something at stake Again, I need there to be a transformation, a learning, something that happens, so something that's just sort of like a page out of your diary or just a play by play of an accident that you saw happen. That was kind of grisly, like things like that. Like that could make a story. 

But why should I, as a person who is flipping through my phone and is only gonna take 0.2 seconds to choose on what I'm gonna click, what is it about that story that's gonna make me wanna read it? And once I click in there, how am I gonna connect to it? What's gonna make me, say, at the cocktail party I'm at or around my dinner table with my friends, I read this story today and I learned this thing. or I never knew this, or it changed the way I thought about that. So anytime I get a story that's just sort of very straightforward and there isn't a whole lot of perspective there, chances are I'm not gonna take it. I might be able to sort of coax the author and say I did those with Marju in a very, very small level, but saying it sounds like something's here. But what are you really trying to say with this? Sometimes I can coax it out and we can go from there, but a lot of times I'll just say that that's not the right story for me. 

0:35:50 - Andrea Askowtiz

Yeah, Is there anything else that like bad formatting, just like your name, wrong like stuff like that, especially for new writers. 

0:36:01 - Margery Berger

I think there's a tendency to overwrite, to be really flowery with their language, to be using an adjective to define every single object they have, and I think they think because that's like good writing and it's not, and that is an alarm bell for me. Again. I could take two hours and sort of defang that story and like get rid of all that language and we might have something good. I don't have time to do that. So I really think people should just sort of tell your story. I always say to people tell it like you're telling your story to a good friend, should be conversational, it should have an easy flow to it. I usually say start at the beginning and end at the end. You know, usually I want a middle. I mean a beginning, a middle and an end. 

Sometimes people have crazy formats and they're doing little like blurbs that are linked together and they're numbered and that can work once in a while. I think if you're really deaf, then you know what you're doing. Sure, i'll take a crazy format, i'll take a story that you know is in second person. It's really hard to do. So I think really just concentrating on telling your story the best way you can. That's how you're going to win, the simplest way. One other thing I'll say to you too. I think a lot of people think they need to peg their story to something. So I've got a story about serving in the military. I'm going to send it to you on Veterans Day. I don't care about that, you know what I mean. Or I saw this movie and there was a subplot in 10 minutes near the end, where they kind of talked about this thing and it relates to me in this way. I don't care about that. Most people haven't seen that movie. Just, your story should be able to stand up on its own. 

0:37:42 - Andrea Askowtiz

If you've got a great peg for it, awesome Well that's, then, unique about HuffPost Personal that it doesn't have to be pegged to a news something. 

0:37:52 - Margery Berger

We just want great stories. Yeah, exactly. 

0:37:55 - Andrea Askowtiz

I would just add to that that I think the most important thing in a story is the truth. 

0:37:59 - Margery Berger

Yes, completely, and in our contract that you'd have to sign with us if we did end up accepting your piece. This is so literal, but we literally make you agree that what you're writing is true. We want real stories by real people and we want the truth, and the truth doesn't have to be something huge. I think even with Marjorie's story. There's a lot of truth in there that she was confronting and that she hadn't realized before, and so sometimes the truth is the whisper in the back of your head, and once you say it out loud or once you write it down, you suddenly realize actually how profound it is, and so I love that. I love that you said that The truth should be haunting the story in some way. It should be there, yeah. 

0:38:44 - Andrea Askowtiz

Cool. Ok, you mentioned how you don't have time to pick out all the extra adverbs And you are famous in the writing circles for getting back to writers immediately. Yeah, so OCD like what's going on. How do you do it? 

0:39:03 - Margery Berger

You know what it is. I've been a writer, I've been someone waiting for that email to come back to me, and I know, even if it's a rejection, I want to hear from somebody. And so if I get an email from someone, I always respond to it, even if it's just to say I can't take this And I can't. I'm taking one out of 100, one out of 150 pitches right now. 

0:39:26 - Andrea Askowtiz

Is that one out of 150 a week? Yeah Dang. 

0:39:31 - Margery Berger

Yeah, we get so many pitches, yeah, it's very tough to get in there And that has to do with like other pieces that we have in our queue. It's so many reasons. And people are always like can you give me a reason? I will say and I'm being completely honest here, 95% of the time it's not because I didn't like the piece. It just was not a fit for us, and I usually don't give people a list of reasons why, because I also want to encourage people. 

I think rejections can stop people on their tracks and they think, well, I'm not going to do that again, absolutely not. I get rejected all the time And you know my background is in poetry. I went to grad school to be a poet. That's a hard row to hoe And you know I would send my little poems out and you know I would say eight out of 10 times they got rejected, you know. So it's just like that's part of being a writer, and sometimes that means you go back to the piece and you give it another go. Sometimes it means you know that piece is ready to go and it just wasn't right for that person and you send it to five more people. So I'm super busy, but my priority are writers and making sure that they feel heard and making sure that I get back to them. Same thing, too, if you don't hear back from me. Something went wrong. It went into my spam. I accidentally deleted it. Nudge me. I love a nudge. I'm never going to be bad about a nudge. 

0:40:52 - Andrea Askowtiz

Honestly you really are. That's why you're famous. Everyone loves you. 

0:40:57 - Margery Berger

I will also just say that that is. I think that is the thing that is most important to me and my job, Aside from telling the stories and honoring people's writing. It is that people feel heard, because also, we're publishing really intimate, difficult, sometimes scary pieces, And so if you're going to trust me with this part of your life this part of your life maybe you've never told anyone about I want to honor that And I'm going to be. And even if I can't take it again, you've trusted me to read this thing And I feel like I owe you that, And so I think it's the least I can do. I understand why other editors don't get back to people, but that's never going to be the way that I can operate. 

0:41:38 - Andrea Askowtiz

They just must be overwhelmed. I mean, I don't think anyone's mean spirited, They're just if you're getting 100 or 150, some other publications are too. 

0:41:47 - Noah Michelson

Editors are too. 

0:41:48 - Andrea Askowtiz

Yeah, it's a tough world. Well, that's all I wanted to ask you, and I just wanted to thank you, and thank you for taking Marjorie's story and for giving her that note that punched it up just that much to make it so good. 

0:42:01 - Noah Michelson

It was an incredible piece. It has hundreds of thousands of views. At this point I've gotten emails from people saying you know, and comments, people saying they felt seen because of it. That's what you, that's what we want, and just you know, if anyone is listening to all your students like, just keep writing, i think a lot of us. It's a compulsion. We couldn't stop if we wanted to. But you know, it's amazing that you've been doing it for 20 years and you're helping people tell their stories. 

0:42:26 - Andrea Askowtiz

That's a huge deal, so thank you, I love it so much. I'm a I'm like a storytelling missionary. I want everyone to tell their stories. The world would be so much better. 

0:42:35 - Margery Berger

The world does get better this way. Amen, yes, exactly. 

0:42:39 - Andrea Askowtiz

Thank you very, very, very much. 

0:43:05 - Zorina Fry

Thank you for listening and thank you, marjorie Berger, for sharing your story And thank you, noah Michael Sint, for coming on our show. 

0:43:13 - Allison Langer

Writing Class Radio is hosted by me, allison Langer, me Andrea Askowitz and me Zarena Fry. Audio production is by Matt Cundle, evan Serminsky, chloe Imol Lane and Aiden Glassy at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Marne Nino Toussaint. There's more writing class on our website, writingclassradiocom, including stories to study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Follow us on Patreon to join our first draft weekly writers group. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays, 12th to 1st Eastern, and me, zarena, wednesdays. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you're looking to take your writing to the next level, we have two second draft writing groups. Each week, three people bring a finished draft for feedback. 

0:44:09 - Andrea Askowtiz

If you're a business or have an organization of some kind and you want to punch up the writing within that organization or business, we are your teachers. Check out all of our classes on writingclassradiocom. 

0:44:27 - Allison Langer

Using the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write and, most importantly, the support from other writers To learn more. Go to patreoncom. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday. 

0:44:43 - Zorina Fry

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours? 

0:45:10 - Joel

Hey, it's Joel Imps and host of that nerd dad podcast. Look, finding time for yourself is an important part of parenting. It allows us to be the best version of ourselves for our kids. So tune in every week to talk about parenting, culture and politics. Whether you're an exhausted parent looking for a laugh or a stone teenager who clicked on this by mistake, this is a podcast for you. You can find me on Spotify, apple, google, the Dean Vendell network or at thatnerddadca. 

Show Notes Episode 152: How Music Inspires Storytelling

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Danielle Huggins. Danielle has been featured twice before on WCR. In Episode 105: Teach Us Something We Don’t Know where she shared her experience with electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). Danielle was also featured in Episode 139: This Is What Mania Looks Like where she takes us through a manic episode. If you haven’t listened to those episodes, definitely check them out.

Today’s story was written for our December 2022 writing retreat in Key Largo, edited by Andrea and Allison, revised by Danielle, then brought to the retreat for edits from the group. Today, we will bring you Danielle’s final version.

This story is a great example of writing in the moment (without distance and perspective) and how to end a story. Danielle also uses song lyrics to reveal emotion and mood.  

Danielle Huggins is a former middle school math teacher. Now she’s a writer, and student of Writing Class Radio. She has written for the Washington Post and Gomag.com and has been featured on the writing class radio podcast twice. She lives with her husband, daughter and mom in northern New Jersey. She can be found on social media @bipolardanielle on TikTok, My Life as a Bipolar Mom on Facebook, and @DanHuggins123 on Twitter. 

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundilll, Aidan Glassey, Chloe Emond Lane and Evan Surminski at the Sound Off Media Company Theme music is by Emia.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join Allison Langer on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Zorina Frey Wednesdays 7-8pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re looking to take your writing to the next level, or if you are a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

Allison Langer 00:00:07

I'm Alison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz 00:00:08

I'm Andrea Askowitz and this is writing class radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our she. There's no place in the world like Writing class. And we want to bring you in.

Allison Langer 00:00:41

Today on our show, we are bringing you a story by Danielle Huggins. Danielle has been featured twice before on writing class radio in episode 105 called Teach us Something We Don't know. That episode was about her experience with ECT, which is an electroconvulsive therapy. She was also on 139 called this Is What Mania Looks Like, where she took us through a manic episode. If you have not listened to those episodes, you definitely want to check them out.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:08

They are very good.

Allison Langer 00:01:10

Yeah, but let's tell them about this one.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:12

Okay.

Allison Langer 00:01:13

This story was written for our December 2022 writing retreat in Key Largo. So before the retreat, we ask all our participants to please submit an essay with 850 words only. And then Andrea and I both edit them.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:28

Send them back. Well, first, everyone cries.

Allison Langer 00:01:30

Oh, cries. Of course they do.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:32

Yeah, they cry because they're like, what? Why only 850 words? No. Can mine be 1000? That always happens. But you know who doesn't do that? Danielle Huggins. She follows the rules.

Allison Langer 00:01:44

She's a saint. We love her.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:46

Yeah, she's cool.

Allison Langer 00:01:47

Anyway, she got a chance to revise it and bring it back for the group. So then the whole group gets to hear it and give her more edits. And by the end of the retreat, she makes all her edits and brings everything on the very last day. And so what we're bringing you today is Danielle's final version. Pretty cool.

Andrea Askowitz 00:02:03

It is really cool. And what the episode is about and what the story shows us is how it is possible to write a story that shows a narrator's evolution, even in the midst of a story that that person is living. And it's also an amazing example of how to end a story. She really lands it.

Allison Langer 00:02:26

And also how to use music to bring in emotion and mood into a piece. So I thought that was really good.

Andrea Askowitz 00:02:35

Yes. We'll be back with Danielle's story after the break. We're back. And this is Andrea Askowitz and you're listening to Ready Class Radio. Up next is Danielle Huggins reading her story. Oh, where, oh, where could my baby be? Danielle Huggins is a former middle school math teacher. Now she's a writer and a student of Writing Class Radio. She's written for The Washington Post and Gomag.com and has been featured on the Writing Class Radio podcast now three times. I mean, she's a regular contributor to the Writing Class radio podcast. Clearly, she lives with her husband, daughter and mom in northern New Jersey. She can be found on social media. Bipolar Danielle on TikTok my Life is a Bipolar Mom on Facebook and Dan Huggins one, two, Three on Twitter Actually, you can find Danielle Huggins on all the social media channels and we will put her links in the show notes and do follow her because she is a really interesting and outspoken voice for bipolar disorder.

Allison Langer 00:03:38

And she's also really cute and fun and funny. And today on her what was the post you just showed me? She has like, pink hair. It's very cool.

Andrea Askowitz 00:03:45

Yeah, she's just fun. Pink lion today. Here's danielle Huggins reading her story. Aware, aware, could my baby be?

Danielle 00:04:01

Oh where Oh Where could my baby be? Is the first line of a Pearl Jam song called Last Kiss. It's a remake of a song from 1961 by Wayne Cochrane about a girlfriend dying. To me it's more literal. My love, my baby is my 15 year old daughter. She is in a psychiatric day program. How did my baby become this person with slashes up her forearms? How did she become someone who pulls out chunks of hair gnaws on her lip until it's so swollen it inhibits her speech and bites and picks her fingers until so much blood has seeped onto her hoodie it looks like a chocolate ice cream stain.Last week I was hammer curling 15 pound dumbbells at the gym. The song. How far I'll go from the movie? Moana came through my earbuds. Kate played Moana in her 6th grade play. I envision the enormous curly brown wig with a pink plumeria flower over one ear on Kate's face. Her blue eyes and dimples were visible from my seat and I marveled with pride at her lack of stagebright. Kate sang I've been staring at the edge of the water long as I can remember, never really knowing why. My eyes well up and I turn off the tunes on my drive home. Dave Matthews dreaming tree comes on. The lyrics hit hard remembered mother's words you'll always be my baby. Mommy, come quick, the dreaming tree has died. Can't find my way home, I have no place to hide. The dreaming tree has died. I want to come quick and help Kate, but I don't know how I lose it. My eyes are burning, tears are mixing with the salty sweat from the gym and I can't see. I pull into a parking lot and weep so hard my sedan rocks. She used to be so happy. Anytime she played by herself, I'd hear her humming. I picture Kate and me going to her preschool in our black Honda Cr V. She is behind me in her car seat, pink with white daisies. She has shoulder length hair with bangs and a mermaid on her shirt. We are belting out the words born this Way by Lady Gaga. Don't hide yourself in regret just love yourself in your set whether life's disabilities left you outcast, bullied or teased, rejoice and love yourself today because baby, you were born this way. The lyrics prove prophetic. Because Kate was and is bullied and she has disabilities, she does not rejoice in herself. However, in fact, she's admitted she hates herself. Kate was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety disorder at twelve and since has been identified as having all the acronyms. Besides Gad, there is ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, OCD obsessive compulsive disorder, SPCD social pragmatic communication disorder and ASD autism spectrum disorder. She had a four day stay at an inpatient psychiatric facility at 13 because she was cutting her wrist with a box cutter and planning on swallowing all of her exapro. She says she wanted to die because of bullying, which took various forms. She was called toddler and flat. Classmates refused to let her sit with them on the bus or in lunch, often placing a band instrument or backpack on the seat to signify. There was no place for her. Once at an activity night, a girl pretended to be her friend and asked Kate if she would take a selfie with her. When Kate took the picture, the girl stuck out her tongue and licked the whole side of Kate's face. The girl cracked up with her actual friends and Kate spent the rest of the night crying and hiding in the bathroom. That bullying happened in middle school and now when not in the day program, kate is in a vocational high school where she majors in graphic arts. She has actual friends, but they joke with her sometimes at her expense. They ridicule her because she can never tell if she's supposed to be in on the joke or the butt of it. Even at the psych program, she is known as the girl who can't take a joke. I'm a misfit among misfits, she says. Kate says she cuts and picks until she's bloodied because people are mean and the world is unfair. But besides her self hatred, she despises income inequality, bigots, homophobes, and ableists. I feel utterly helpless. I can't solve these world problems. My forever humming, once carefree child is in crisis, I can't convince her she is on the right track. Baby, you were born this way. I can keep reminding her of what a therapist at her program said, that she's perfect as is and the world is a better place with her in it. But every day that I sign her into this program take the elevator down to my car and turn it on. I tried to find a song that won't make me cry and the truth is there isn't one.

Andrea Askowitz 00:10:20

What really hit me about this story right now as we I just heard it again is the ending and how the ending is it's so true. It's just like landing on this narrator in the car, like trying to find a song that won't make her cry and there is no song. So she is in the thick of it. We talk a lot about needing distance to write a story, but I don't think so. And here is a great example of this happened today.

Allison Langer 00:10:49

It's a brutally heavy story. I mean, now we heard it at the retreat and now I read it over last night before I sent it to her to record. And now hearing it again, it hasn't lessened the severity of what this family is going through. And my heart just breaks. I get it. This mom, she just doesn't know what to do and everything makes her sad.

Andrea Askowitz 00:11:18

She can't protect her kid and she's using songs as like I don't want to say that goofy object correlative thing, which means like, an object that stands in for an emotion. So I don't think it's exactly that. But she's using songs in the story to show us throughout her day that everything reminds her of this situation that she is like, in the midst of to me just feels so real.

Allison Langer 00:11:48

It's a brilliant technique. I mean, it really is because somebody else has already come up with the sentiment and the song. And song has just this incredible way of putting you right into a mood, a mode even. And it takes you right out of where you're at presently. So it's like you're kind of in the middle. It can jog your memory. So now she's remembering all the good things and then it's reminding her of where they're at. I don't know. It's a brilliant mechanism to tell a story.

Andrea Askowitz 00:12:19

There was one thing that I wanted that I noticed right now. I hate doing this because right, like, it's too late, but the narrator said that she used to hear whenever her daughter would be playing by herself, I'd hear her humming and now, what song? I don't know, but maybe it was.

Allison Langer 00:12:37

No song because kids like.

Andrea Askowitz 00:12:42

Just like, kid, little kid. Oh, maybe. I'm guessing it was the song, but it's okay. God.

Allison Langer 00:12:52

Yeah. Really cool.

Andrea Askowitz 00:12:55

The specifics are vivid and scary. The biting and the picking and the hair pulling. She tells us that her daughter was in four days in a mental hospital. She tells us all the acronyms and then explains them. Damn.

Allison Langer 00:13:14

God. Yeah. Really good. We learn about the narrator, too. We get that she goes to the gym. We get what kind of music she likes. We get what kind of mom she is. And then we get a lot about Kate as well, who she used to be, who she currently is, what she's gone through. We get a lot of information in just very few words.

Andrea Askowitz 00:13:35

How long is it?

Allison Langer 00:13:36

I know you're going to ask me that question.

Andrea Askowitz 00:13:38

Sorry.

Allison Langer 00:13:39

For our purposes, it was meant to be 850 words, and I think it is 850.

Andrea Askowitz 00:13:45

I think she told me.

Allison Langer 00:13:47

Yeah, I'm going to look well measure. Yeah, it's 836.

Andrea Askowitz 00:13:53

836 words. Yeah. We get a whole story. But let's talk about is it satisfying to you that this narrator wrote this story in the moment rather than getting distance?

Allison Langer 00:14:04

Oh, yeah. I like it 100%.

Andrea Askowitz 00:14:07

Yeah, I do, too. I just know that writing teachers often say you need to get distance so that you can make meaning of a situation. But this narrator made meaning of this situation by just really reporting what the situation is and basically the meaning that I'm taking away from it. Well, she talks about how she can't convince her that she's okay. I love this. This is something that I think is a really great technique. At the very end of the story, she says, I can't convince her she's on the right track, baby. Which is great because she brings back that lyric. I can keep reminding her of what a therapist at her program said. So by bringing in an outsider we've talked about this before in class. It's sort of like someone else speaks the truth. So the therapist says the world is a better place with her in it. So that's a really awesome technique when you bring in an outside player that doesn't have skin in the game, because you can 100% trust that person. And I think of it as like that person is the chorus, like in Greek theater. Do you get what I'm saying?

Allison Langer 00:15:23

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:24

Oh, you do? Okay. So that person is saying what's true, what we all know is true. So that was well done.

Allison Langer 00:15:30

I'm just trying to think because we always talk about what makes the story. Has the narrator changed? What has she learned all that stuff just so that it's different than a situation? So what makes this one not just a situation, but more of a story?

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:45

I think it's that very end. I think that the narrator hasn't changed exactly, but she has learned that she just has to persevere.

Allison Langer 00:15:56

And I think it can be that simple because I felt satisfied. She's, like, at a place where, like, okay, we're on this path, and we're just going to keep doing it until hopefully she gets to the place where she realizes she's perfect as she is and that the world is a better place with her in it and that she was just born this way and learns to deal with it. And I think that's also another beautiful thing about the therapist, because the therapist has obviously seen many, many kids go through this. So by her saying that we get that it's going to be okay if we can just stay on track and just support her as best we can, then she can make it through this tough time.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:29

It would have sounded so fake if the narrator spun it in any kind of positive way. Yeah, 100%, because at the very, very end, she's like, the truth is, there isn't one. There isn't one song that she can find that won't make her cry.

Allison Langer 00:16:45

No, god. Well, thank you, Danielle, for sharing your story with us. And thank you guys for listening.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:52

Wait, before we stop, I want to say that this totally hits home for me, and sometimes we talk about our own lives, but my daughter, at this same age, was cutting and spent five days in a mental hospital. I was there exactly in this moment, and now my daughter's 19, and now I can tell a story with some perspective because it's only been four years, but those four years were huge. And, I mean, my daughter is not, like, out of the woods 100%, but she's not in crisis, not at all. She's totally doing well in college.

Allison Langer 00:17:34

So if you had to give advice to this narrator, what would you say? Not that we're in the business of giving advice, but no, but.

Andrea Askowitz 00:17:42

I mean, I would say do exactly what you're doing. Just remember yourself what that therapist said, that she's perfect as she is and the world is a better place with her in it. Because that therapist, like you said a minute ago, Allison, that therapist has seen this, and they know that kids sometimes are just like, I don't know that this is true for my daughter, but I do think that there are some kids who are just, like, way adult before their time. Do you know what I mean? Like, they're just, like, too advanced for kids their age. And I think that's Kate, just based on what I know about her, what this narrator has told me, and Danielle came to our writing retreat in Key Largo. And we workshop this, and we got to talking about a lot of stuff, and we have a lot in common with our children. And I just think that that's what Kate is like. Kids don't understand her, but adults will, and adults do. So I don't know. I hope this narrator just keeps remembering that she's perfect as is or could enough. My mom always says, you're perfect, but you don't have to be.

Allison Langer 00:18:51

AW, that's sweet. I love your mom.

Andrea Askowitz 00:18:54

AW.

Allison Langer 00:19:02

Well, thank you, Danielle, for sharing your story. I'm sure there's a lot of people that will connect with it, and it's an important story to share. And thank you guys all for listening. Writing class Radio is hosted by me, Alison Langer and me, Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Kundal, Evan Sirminsky and Aidan Glassy at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music Is by EMEA There's more writing class on our website, writingclassradio.com, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our community by following us on patreon. If you want to write with us every week, you can join our first draft weekly writers group. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays, 1220 Eastern, and Serena Fry Wednesdays, seven to 08:00 p.m. Eastern.

Andrea Askowitz 00:19:52

I just want to say that sorry. If you want to write with us every week, who doesn't want to write with us every week? I mean, it's pretty crowded in our group, but it's open to anyone and, like, come on, it's so much fun.

Allison Langer 00:20:10

It's really fun.

Andrea Askowitz 00:20:11

We are hanging out twice a week, actually, but I mostly come on Tuesdays and it's just like, so much fun. Okay, go on, carry on.

Allison Langer 00:20:21

I will say, it does always make me feel like a better writer. And I do seem to come up with new things, and I'm like, oh, my God, look, this could actually be something. So I do think 30 minutes of writing is just enough time to get a solid outline or draft of something, and then you go back and work on it and boom, you get to submit. It happens all the time. So come join us. So exactly what I just said. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. And if you're looking to take your writing to the next level, if you're a business owner, entrepreneur, community activist, or a group that needs healing and want to help your whole team and all your people write better, check out all the classes we offer on Writingclass Radio. Join the community that comes together for instruction and excuse to write. And most importantly, with support from other writers, a new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:09

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. There really isn't. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

Speaker 4 00:21:23

Produced and distributed by the Sound Off media company.

Show Notes Episode 151: Follow the Story Spine to Get Published

This episode showcases the effectiveness of using the story spine structure. The story spine is a story structure as old as time. It’s the model every fairytale follows. It works really well for all stories because it’s intuitive. It’s in our collective unconscious. 

You will hear three prompt responses from Writing Class Radio’s First Annual Key Largo Writing Retreat.We told our students to think about a time everything changed and then we walked them through the story spine. Kim Costigan, Pamela Lear, and Dr. Jane Marks brought the bag!

You will also hear about the other stories at the retreat that were published after hard core edits. Start planning to attend our next Key Largo Writer’s Retreat in Dec 2023.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Guest host Zorina Frey. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Emia.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

If you want to write with us every week, you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join Allison Langer on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Zorina Frey Wednesdays 7-8pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re looking to take your writing to the next level, or if you are a business owner, community activist, group that needs healing, entrepreneur and you want to help your team write better, check out all the classes we offer on our website: writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

Andrea Askowitz 00:00:06

I'm Andrea Askowitz.

Zorina Frey 00:00:08

I'm Zorina Frey.

Allison Langer 00:00:09

And I'm Allison Langer. This is Writing Class Radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in the story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, Writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our sh**. There's no place in the world like Writing Class. And we want to bring you in.

Andrea Askowitz 00:00:36

We got Zorina back on our show. Hey, are you guys done? We're about to bring you stories from Writing Class Radio's first annual Key Largo Writing retreat that happened in December 2022. And Zorina was there when all that magic happened.

Allison Langer 00:01:01

All I can think about is the karaoke.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:05

Yeah, that was magic. That was magic.

Allison Langer 00:01:08

And all the stories that came out of it. Can I brag? Didn't I get one published? I got one in the Huffington Post.

Zorina Frey 00:01:14

You did what?

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:15

I think I did, too. Yes, you did, actually. You got two published. Allison Langer. Both of the stories that we workshopped in both our Key Largo Writing retreats have been published big time. You Washington Post.

Allison Langer 00:01:30

Me, huffington Post and Washington Post.

Zorina Frey 00:01:33

Zorina, I'm in the middle. My story was a little personal, so it took a minute for me to get the courage. It's submitted somewhere and I'm just waiting.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:44

It's encomino. At Key Largo Writing retreat, we told our students to think about a time everything changed, and then we walked them through the story spine, which is, oh, my God, I love the story spine. It's a structure which is as old as time. It's really the model. It's the model for every fairy tale, but it really works for every story because it's totally intuitive. It's just the structure that we have in all of our collective unconscious.

Allison Langer 00:02:18

First, before I explain what Andrea just said, let's delineate a little bit between story and prompt response so that our listeners understand what we're bringing them today.

Andrea Askowitz 00:02:31

Okay, so we like to make a distinction between a story that has been workshopped and worked on at home and rises to the level of what I like to call art and a prompt response. Sorry, Alice is vomiting. But there is a difference between a completed story and a prompt response. Although there are some people lately who can write a story just out of the box, but it's very, very rare. But what we're bringing you today are three prompt responses that came out of prompt writing to the story spine. Does that make sense?

Allison Langer 00:03:10

All right, well, it might make more sense when we explain what story spine is. So first of all, we give our students the prompt.

Andrea Askowitz 00:03:19

Okay?

Allison Langer 00:03:20

In the beginning wait.

Andrea Askowitz 00:03:21

First, I think we asked them to think of a time everything changed.

Allison Langer 00:03:26

What Andrea said, think about a time everything changed. And then I said, okay, in the beginning. And then people just write for three minutes. Then I interrupt and say, but one day and give another three minutes, and because of that, another three minutes, and because of that, another three minutes. And maybe I'll say that again until finally and people still write, and then nothing was the same. And then I give people about three to five minutes to kind of just explain basically how whatever this situation was impacted their life. And that is the part that makes a situation and a story different. So a lot of people come to the table with just a situation. This crazy thing happened to me. But because of until nothing was the same. Here, you're forced to write how this situation impacted you. And that's am I saying impacted?

Andrea Askowitz 00:04:16

Right.

Allison Langer 00:04:16

Impacted. Impacted.

Andrea Askowitz 00:04:18

But what you're saying is making me realize why this prompt and this, like, following these prompts all in a row are so good. Because they force you to take a situation and think about what the meaning of it was for you. And that's what makes the situation a story.

Zorina Frey 00:04:33

Boom.

Allison Langer 00:04:34

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Zorina Frey 00:04:36

It keeps you from going outside of the rails, too, and going down an avenue where you're just like, okay, what am I saying? And just getting off track. It really does work.

Andrea Askowitz 00:04:46

So we're going to hear three prompt responses to this, and then we'll talk later about whether or not these are full stories. We could, because maybe they are.

Zorina Frey 00:04:54

Up first is Pamela Lear, then Jane Marks, then Kim Costigan back with their prompt responses after the break.

Andrea Askowitz 00:05:04

We're back.

Zorina Frey 00:05:06

This is Zorina Frey and you're listening to Writing class Radio. Each student responded to the prompt a time everything changed and used the story spine structure.

Andrea Askowitz 00:05:18

Pamela Lear is currently writing her memoir, a Mother Daughter Medical Story. She facilitates a variety of writing workshops, including one designed specifically for individuals with chronic illness and or disability. Pamela is pursuing her MFA in creative nonfiction from Bay Path University.

Zorina Frey 00:05:37

Here's Pamela Lear reading her prompt response, which she titled Beach Days.

Pamela Lear 00:05:50

In the beginning, I assumed being a mother was the easiest, most natural thing I would ever do. From the time I was 16 or so, I dreamed of family, little children in a fantasy world of laughter, loving embraces, cute clothing, and lots of friends. We would hang out for a day at the beach with coolers, umbrellas and boogie boards. Or we'd have friends over for dinner and literally coup over how well our children all got along. Then one day we were in that future, and I looked at my husband, my house, my kids, and said, probably out loud, "What the fuck?" We were on our way to Bates Beach at Ringcom Point laden not only with the coolers, umbrellas and boogie boards, but also with the diaper bag, sunscreen, hats, nappy blankets, water bottles, pacifiers, three swimsuits per kid, at least a dozen diapers cream for baby butt rash, two magazines I knew I wouldn't actually have time to read, and my husband would insist he needed to bring two six packs of beer as well. And because of that, the exhaustion, the responsibility, the overwhelm I sat down on the driveway and began to cry. Not some sniffles with a few delicate tears running down my pudgy mom face that simply wouldn't drop the extra weight. No, these were deep, heaving sobs that accompanied a sense of desperation, the need to release the burden that was just too heavy. Because of all that, I simply couldn't budge. Brett and the kids looked at me. "Honey, come. I'll help more", Brett said. Mommy, "I want to go", said five year old Sean as he stood in front of me, his little flamingo covered swimming trunks hanging on slim hips, a beach towel draped over his shoulders as if he were already a too cool surfer dude. He leaned over and put his arms around my neck. "Mommy, don't cry". The little one, only 18 months, may have sensed the dilemma. Mothers shouldn't be unhappy. Mommies were supposed to soothe others. My baby girl landed in my lap, her little body solid and warm. I looked up at the bright sun shining on us with an ambiance of purpose. This could be a glorious day. It was only 10:00 a.m on a Saturday. The cloud moved to the left, partially covering the sun. Sean shivered, and Shayna snuggled closer, and Brett said, "Well, okay, I said. Let's go". Tantrum over. We repeated those beach days over and over. Now, 40 years later, we wonder how we ever did so much in a given minute, day, hour. Then we gather the grandchildren for a day of adventure. We feel the same sense of overwhelm, and yet we do it again and again, and we'll keep doing that until we simply can't anymore.

Andrea Askowitz 00:09:03

I love it. I do. You guys okay?

Allison Langer 00:09:09

Yeah. I mean, I'm just, like some people are able to get to the very end, like, tell a whole story in one prompt response and I think she really did it.

Zorina Frey 00:09:17

Yeah, I agree.

Andrea Askowitz 00:09:19

One thing that I love about this structure is and because of that and because of that, it's like it ramps up. And she did that so well at that moment, and I'd cry. And she talked about her pudgy mom face, and then she just sat down on the driveway and cried. And because of that, I couldn't budge. It was just like the situation got worse and worse.

Zorina Frey 00:09:41

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz 00:09:42

And the details are so vivid and excellent.

Zorina Frey 00:09:46

Where this prompt I see really works is where, before she goes to the because of that, when she says the husband needs to bring a six pack, that could have easily turned into a husband wife story. But that's not what this particular prompt response was about. It was about a mother dealing with this reality of being a mother, that wasn't near the fantasy she thought it.

Andrea Askowitz 00:10:12

Was because she had this in the beginning, I had this fantasy that motherhood would be natural and easy. So she told us that right at the beginning. Yeah, sorry.

Zorina Frey 00:10:21

No, that's it.

Allison Langer 00:10:22

She really crammed in a lot of details, too, so that's really helpful. We really get it. We see all the stuff, the gear, all that kind of stuff. And I do think that rich into the story.

Zorina Frey 00:10:35

I remember listening to her read this story at the retreat, and we were all outside by the water, and here she is talking about this beach. So I'm sure even just where we were writing really just brought us there, because she did a really good job. Not to say that she wouldn't, she's a great writer, but it just added to just the placement of this prompt response.

Andrea Askowitz 00:11:01

I wonder if being at the beach or being by the water, that's like a sense memory. Like maybe there's something else that helped her bring out all of these details.

Zorina Frey 00:11:12

I'm sure.

Allison Langer 00:11:15

All right, perfect. Thank you, Pam. That was awesome.

Zorina Frey 00:11:19

The next prompt response is by Dr. Jane Marks, a conservation, ecologist, and professor of aquatic ecology at Northern Arizona University. If you like her voice, and you will you can hear a full story by Jane on our podcast, episode 149, how to make Your writing more personal in any field.

Andrea Askowitz 00:11:43

Yeah, she just told the story on our podcast a few weeks ago, and it was balls out.

Allison Langer 00:11:48

Jane's the coolest.

Andrea Askowitz 00:11:50

You read her bio and you think.

Allison Langer 00:11:51

She's going to be some boring, like, biologist or something. But Jane's the bomb.

Zorina Frey 00:11:58

No, james the shit.

Andrea Askowitz 00:11:59

Yeah.

Allison Langer 00:12:00

Okay.

Dr. Jane Marks 00:12:11

In the beginning, I was happy. Oddly happy. Outgoing, chatty, observant and every day I was smiling and laughing to myself. "What's so funny?" My mom would ask. I would tell her. But mom struggled with depression and never seemed to understand. So I stopped trying to explain. When my mom gave her toast at my wedding, she said all her life, Jane is laughing, but she won't share what she's laughing about. Maybe Bruce will finally find out. But one day, nothing was funny. I had breast cancer. Stage three full blown mastectomy, chemo, radiation cancer, a 50% chance of becoming back cancer, a flip a coin, and I live or die cancer. At first I was strong. I bought a wig, colored pencils and drawing pads. But chemo made me sicker and sicker. And because of that, I got depressed. Really depressed. I couldn't see a way out. I felt like I was a burden to my husband and kids. And because of that, I turned to my mom. We weren't close, but she seemed to understand. Just cry, she told me. Sometimes I would call her and just cry. "Good things will happen to you and your family again", she said. I held on to that thought, and good things did happen again. Because of that, I saw my mom differently. I saw her as someone who could support me. I respected her. I understood her. Until finally she was dying. At 96, she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and the doctors couldn't treat her. She fell into a clinical depression. She had only a few months to live and she begged to have electroshock therapy because she didn't want to be depressed when she died. And I was sad because I wanted to talk with her, but she couldn't or didn't want to. Ever since then, I still hate cancer, but I value that cancer was the only time I felt close to my mom.

Zorina Frey 00:14:30

Didn't this just take a turn? She starts off being happy, and then it ends up being so heavy. This fine really helped this narrator stay on track, because we're talking about some heavy issues here. Mother and daughter cancer. And you can easily go any way with this story, and it keeps the spine that's a really great word for it, the spine, because it keeps it straight. I love it.

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:01

This spine took this narrator and helped her tell the full story of her relationship with her mom, like from kid to her mom's death, and it became a story. And because of cancer, because of the depression, and because of cancer, and because she got cancer and depressed, and then she turned to her mom and she just cried. And because of that, she then trusted her mom. I mean, it really like it showed the whole evolution of this mother daughter relationship. I love this story.

Allison Langer 00:15:32

Really amazing.

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:33

Yeah.

Zorina Frey 00:15:34

One good thing here is that she says in the beginning that her mom was depressed, and we never know why or what made her depressed. But you don't care because of the way the story flows, you're still getting a lot of information that's satisfying to the prompt response.

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:52

Yes. I think she just told us just enough information.

Allison Langer 00:15:55

I was going to see how many words was in this. 335.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:00

It's amazing. It really is an evolution. Yeah.

Allison Langer 00:16:03

And if she wanted to make it bigger and longer and more in depth, she could show us more of the mom and daughter relationship. There's opportunity there. So what the spine does, it gives you sort of an outline, and then you go back and fill it in.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:17

Balls out. I don't know why I keep using that term with this narrator, but -

Allison Langer 00:16:24

It's because of the it's brussels sprout balls.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:28

Yeah, it's true. It's a reference to Jane Marks'story, where she wrote about wrinkly green balls, which were brussels sprouts.

Allison Langer 00:16:35

In 149.

Zorina Frey 00:16:38

And no one wants any wrinkly green balls.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:43

Well done.

Zorina Frey 00:16:45

The final prompt response is by Kim Costigan. Kim is a writer in Winthrop pursuing a master's degree in creative writing at Emerson college. She's also a star at karaoke. I'm a witness.

Andrea Askowitz 00:17:02

Yeah, we all witness her hit. Unbelievable.

Zorina Frey 00:17:06

Don't lie.

Andrea Askowitz 00:17:08

And that's what happens at our writing retreats. Karaoke is good.

Zorina Frey 00:17:14

We do?

Andrea Askowitz 00:17:16

Yes, we do. Oh, my God. Yes. Because the world needs to see it.

Kim Costigan 00:17:31

In the beginning, I knew something felt wrong. But I didn't know how to name it or talk about it. The worst part was that my body reacted spontaneously to the physical sensation of being touched down there. Every day after that seemed to be shifting and changing me in ways that were painful. I blame myself even at age five for the horrible things my father was doing to me. He told me that if I told my mother, I would be taken away from her. He whispered in my ear as his hand rubbed between my legs. He told my mother he was tucking me in on those nights. I'm sure she had no idea what was happening. But then one day he was gone. I was about nine the first time he left. It was welcome news when my mother and father sat us down to tell us they were separating. Because of that, my sister and I were not unhappy. A sense of relief came over me. My father leaving meant our nights were peaceful and I could sleep uninterrupted. There were a few months of no fighting, no yelling and no worrying that my father would creep into our bedroom at 03:00 a.m while my mother slept in the next room. That feeling did not last though, because my mother then announced "Your father is moving back home. He promised to stop drinking. He's going to AA". Because of that, I returned to worrying about being awoken from my sleep. It wasn't long before he returned to drinking again, hitting my mother again, bothering my sister and me again. And this was the pattern. Things would get bad, he would leave. He'd cry and promise to be better. And my mother would take him back. Each time my sister and I would cry. Not when he was leaving, but when my mother would announce he was coming back, we would yell "No, we don't want him back. Please, mommy." Until finally, in 1980, when I was 15, they separated for good. My mother said they were divorcing and selling our house. We would be moving to my grandmother's trailer in the next town. I hated to leave my neighborhood where my friends were close by. But it was finally going to be over. He wouldn't be able to come into our room at night. We would be safe. Ever since then, I've been trying to make sense of those 1st 15 years of my mother's blindness, to what was actually happening, to the violence we witnessed and experienced. And to recover from the worst betrayal a father can perpetrate on a child. The question I ask over and over again is "why?".

Allison Langer 00:20:41

And this story breaks my heart every single time I hear it.

Andrea Askowitz 00:20:46

I know, I'm like, I have chills, but scary chills.

Allison Langer 00:20:52

And she tells it so perfectly, she really does. I mean, honestly, no needless words, just really to the point, direct and in the voice of a five year old and a nine year old and a 15 year old. So I think that's super effective.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:10

The spine did an interesting thing here. Instead of, like, she told us the dramatic information at the top, and then because the dad left, there was a sense of relief. Because of that, instead of a ramping up, it was like sort of a cooling down. But then she used and because of that, but my father was moving back, and because of that, then it's like the tension ramps up again. It's just a way to use the because of that, you can think of them in segments to rise the action or reduce the tension. To increase the tension or reduce the tension. She did both, and it was just gorgeous.

Zorina Frey 00:21:53

I think the spine is a really great tool for telling a story where you're referencing some really heavy stuff, but that's not the story. You're really trying to get to something else. And that usually we've been told, like, hey, that's a bomb, right? You need to go back and unpack that a little bit more in this case, I'm sure. It seems to me that this prompt response seems to be getting me ready to learn more about Kim and the mother. Right. So it really seems like a prologue to a mother and daughter story.

Andrea Askowitz 00:22:27

It could be the prologue to her memoir.

Allison Langer 00:22:30

I'll let her know. She's in my memoir class on Monday night. But what about prologues?

Andrea Askowitz 00:22:35

Do people read the prologue? I think so. And maybe it's just the first chapter. Maybe it's not a prologue. Maybe it's just the first chapter, the beginning. Because how it ends is so interesting. It's all about she's setting up why? That's what I love so much about stories, the stories that are asking that question. Why? Like, why did this happen? How could a father betray a child in this way? How could a mother be blind to this? Why did this happen?

Zorina Frey 00:23:03

So good.

Andrea Askowitz 00:23:04

Yeah.

Allison Langer 00:23:05

Really good.

Andrea Askowitz 00:23:06

It's amazing. Wow. So I do think these three are stories. They might not be fully fleshed out or final, but they're well on their way to being stories because they do have the situation, and they do, all of them. There's a questioning or like, maybe this one's not there yet, but the narrators have changed and they're growing and they're learning, and that's what makes the story.

Zorina Frey 00:23:33

Going back to the prologue thing. I tend to skip over them sometimes, but I think this would still be good for, like, a website, for an author website. If they're trying to sell their book, it's something they can go to. Just content for that. That's another reason to go to the spine.

Andrea Askowitz 00:23:51

It's a way to tell your whole story in a very distinct way. Yes, exactly. It's a way to map out an entire memoir or an entire solo show or an entire essay.

Allison Langer 00:24:05

Really good.

Zorina Frey 00:24:07

Good exercise, really good tool. Good writing tool.

Andrea Askowitz 00:24:10

I just wanted to say that when we heard these in Key Largo, I was blown away. And now that I'm hearing them again, I am equally blown away.

Zorina Frey 00:24:19

Yeah, it's just as good. It's still good.

Allison Langer 00:24:22

Well, we should tell our listeners that we will be having another retreat. Probably, what? Early December 2023?

Andrea Askowitz 00:24:30

Yeah.

Allison Langer 00:24:31

So look for it. Start saving some money and some vacation time. It is not only a great place to write and find community, but it is like a retreat haven it's on the water. It's beautiful, the weather is insane, the food is delicious. What amazing, we have the best chefs ever and they come and they pour love into our healthy food. And you leave just feeling complete and whole and healthy. And it's just a great place, really great experience. Thank you guys for listening. And thank you, Pamela Lear, Jane Marks and Kim Costigan for sharing your stories. Writing class. Radio is hosted by me, Allison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz 00:25:19

And me, Andrea Askewitz and your guest host, Zorina Frey.

Allison Langer 00:25:24

Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Serminsky and Aidan Glassy at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Emia. There's more writing class on our website, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. For $35 a month, you can join our first draft weekly writers group. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays, twelve to one Eastern time.

Zorina Frey 00:25:50

And me Zorina Frey Wednesday, 7 to 08:00 p.m. Eastern.

Allison Langer 00:25:54

You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you're looking to take your writing to the next level, check out all the classes we offer at writingclassradio.com, join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to patreon.com writingclassradio. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Zorina Frey 00:26:18

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

Dr. Jane Marks 00:26:32

Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.

Show Notes Episode 150: In Transition: How to Write a Story About an Ongoing Situation

Today on our show, we’re talking about how to write about a situation that is ongoing. Typically, at the end of an essay, the narrator writes about what they learned or how they changed. But what if transition IS the change? What happens if there is no happy (or sad) ending…yet?

On this episode, Ariane Malfait writes about her transition–-one that is still in progress and may always be. Ariane tells the story of shedding the masculine body she felt never fit. At 19, after bottom surgery, she expects to finally feel like herself, but when she wakes up from surgery, she is plunged into darkness. Her story is called The Creation of Flesh.

Ariane Malfait is a Belgian journalism student with a passion for writing. She writes mainly nonfiction and poetry but loves to experiment with other genres. You can find Ariane on Instagram and Medium.

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Emia. 

There’s more writing class on our website, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. 

For $35/month you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join Allison on Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Zorina Frey Wednesdays 7-8pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. If you’re looking to take your writing to the next level, check out all the classes we offer on our website, writingclassradio.com.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

Andrea Askowitz. 00:00:00

A hundred and 50 episodes.

Alison Langer 00:00:01

Yeah. That's fucking cool.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:00:03

Nice round number. That's very cool.

Alison Langer 00:00:04

I can't believe we've been doing this for 150 episodes. Like, seriously.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:00:09

I know. It only took us 150 episodes to get any good.

Alison Langer 00:00:12

Well, that's still up to our listeners, I guess.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:00:16

I feel like we finally got it. I'm Andrea Askowitz.

Alison Langer 00:00:26

I'm Alison Langer, and this is writing class radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, Writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shit. There's no place there's no place in the world like Writing Class. And we want to bring you in.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:00:55

Today on our show, we're talking about transitions. What's really interesting about the story you're about to hear is that we realized that it doesn't really have a solid no, it has a solid ending, but it's not like an A to B kind of ending. And it made us both think, like, maybe we're all just transitioning all the time. So the story is really honest that way. Today on our show, we bring you a story by Ariane Malfait. Ariane is a Belgian journalism student with a passion for writing. You guys, she's all the way in Belgium. I love it.

Alison Langer 00:01:36

I love when you think, like, somebody in Belgium is so far away. We live in the United States and think that the whole world revolves around us. I mean, we're so stupid.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:01:47

She is, like, 6 hours ahead of us. That's cool.

Alison Langer 00:01:51

But how did we get her? I think it was Terry Barr who recommended her. Or that she send her story in to us.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:01:59

Right? And and Terry Barr was the star of episode 146. So thank you, Terry Barr, for recommending Ariane to our show. Ariane writes mainly non fiction and poetry, but loves to experiment with other genres as well. So now she's experimenting with essay. Damn. We'll be back with Ariane story after the break. We're back.

Alison Langer 00:02:25

I'm Alison Langer, and this is writing class radio. Up next is Ariane Malfait reading her story, the Creation of Flesh.

Ariane Malfait 00:02:39

Seven years ago, the doctors cut open my body and sculptured a vagina between my legs. I'm newly 19 when they roll me through the long hallway on squealing wheels. I'm holding my gaze to the ceiling where fluorescent lamps pass me one every few meters, accelerating my nerves. I lean onto the stiff white pillow behind me and 80 minutes away by staring at the clock; 09:15 a.m. I tell myself not to cry, but feel my eyes fill up with tears anyway. I'm nervous. I've never been really sick, never spent one night at the hospital, never broken any other 206 bones that hang my body on its rack. A group of doctors and nurses appear. I recognize the lost burst and to approach the bed. Professor Monstre, the famous plastic surgeon I've had multiple appointments with over the last four years. His name, almost pronounced as monster, always felt ironic to me. He's drawing lines and crosses all over my body, deciding where to cut, where to take and where to build. Without even noticing the tears on my cheeks. The doctors leave and I'm alone again, my tears mixing with the black markings across my chest. What was I supposed to do with the body I didn't want? I felt like this from the moment I was born. A girl trapped in a male body. I've evolved into this, and just like every other living thing, I followed Darwin's survival of the fittest. I adapted to my surroundings in order to stay alive. The other option would have been simply not existing at all. A few minutes later, I'm rolled into the operating room. When you were a child, did you ever play the game "I see, I see what you can't see" to pass the time over long car rides? I did. Well I see I see what you can see. I see a scared woman in a boy's body lying on a single bed in the bright lights, hoping this surgery makes her feel whole. I see shimmering metal tools laying on a table needed to remove contradictionary parts. I see the anesthesiologist preparing to put me to sleep for 8 hours. I look into her eyes. I listen to her soothing voice. She asks me questions, but I can't really hear them. I breathe in the gas like I'm told and count backwards. Ten, nine eight, white, seven, black, six. The first thing I remember after the surgery is my parents smiling down on me. My mom has her cool hand on my glowing forehead. My father is standing at the end of the bed, taking its usual distance. The days after are a blur. But on the 6th day in the healing process, I'm able to take my first step towards the bathroom, towards the wall sized mirror. My eyes are sunken, my ribs are protruding, my legs are trembling. Pale white skin is laced with black thread, holding pieces of blue, purple, swollen flesh together. There's blood, almost black, flaking around new body parts. And down there everything is flat. Everything is gone. What have I done? The depression I faced as a teenager dealing with this gender dysphoria seemed fixable once I got the operation. There was an end date to the suffering; I would feel whole. Now seeing myself all broken and put back together, I realize the suffering isn't over. I stare into the hospital mirror again and as my fingers discover the newness of what I see, I'm shaking. My skin feels foreign, my breasts feel hard. I'm reminded of a Willem Lembrook statue I once saw in the MoMA in New York City. There I held my palm on the naked marble girls breasts like many before me had done. Noticeable from the discolored area around her chest. She was called the kneeling woman. I fell to my knees too. The darkness that overcomes me postsurgery is darker than it had ever been before. People around me were puzzled. Isn't this what you wanted all along? They admired a creation like puzzle pieces put together to create an image of a woman. But in every puzzle, if you look closely, you'll see the areas where the pieces meet black cracks, fragments of the real thing. I'm a woman put together the pieces stitched with a black thread. And although I look like a woman, I feel bitter to the core. I'm not the Taboola Rasa, the blank sheet I thought I'd become. No new girl reborn. I'm still me. My body only modified, reshaped and yes, perhaps improved. It's still my mind, confused by what it did to get here. And so, in the aftermath of my transformation, I questioned all I was and all I had become. Why did I do this? If I will never truly realize how the female mind works, if I will never feel the softness of naturally occurring breasts or the pain of a menstrual cycle, if I will never feel life growing inside my belly. Even Professor Monstrey, who praised me as one of his finest creations, dismissed my dilemma, using words as petite and delicate, and then assured me of who I was and who I am. "Look at you. You're so feminine. Your features don't show any sign of the other sex. How can someone so beautiful have these issues?" "Thank you, Doctor". It's all I owe him. Now I'm a 25 year old human and a 70 year old woman. Although on some days it feels like I'm living inside something that's not my own, I've slowly learned to accept this body. It started with being able to express myself in looks and clothing. Sexuality was also a big factor. Being able to experience sex as a female opened up a whole new world for me. I felt sexy, passionate, admired and loved. And finally, I'm starting to see the transformation my body underwent as an extension of myself.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:09:05

I am blown away by this story.

Alison Langer 00:09:08

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:09:08

And her reading of it. It's so emotional and so vulnerable.

Alison Langer 00:09:17

I know, I agree. I feel the same way. It was very heartfelt, is what was really cool. It's like I felt like I was waking up in the room with her. I felt like I was transitioning along with her. Which was really cool.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:09:31

I know. And the story took turns that I wasn't expecting. I did not expect her to look in the mirror and feel worse, to feel the darkness that she described. Did you?

Alison Langer 00:09:48

No, I did not.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:09:50

I feel very thankful that she wrote the story and is trusting us with it.

Alison Langer 00:09:56

Let's talk about some of the things that she did really well.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:10:00

Right from the beginning, I felt her fear. She describes how she'd never been in the hospital before and I remember talking to you about this, and you wanted to know why she was afraid. And I was like, no, she's afraid because she's about to go into surgery. For me, it was exactly all I needed. She was just, like, describing, like, looking at the ceiling and -

Alison Langer 00:10:28

Back up a second. Back up a second to the very first line. Seven years ago, the doctors cut open my body and sculpted a vagina between my legs. So she grounds us right away. She's not trying to spring it on us later. We get all the information right at top, so we know what we're looking at, we know what we're going through, and now we're going to go on a journey with somebody.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:10:48

That's true. And that's a very, very, very strong first line. The doctor cut my body open and sculpted a vagina between my legs. That's a lot.

Alison Langer 00:10:58

Yeah, but I loved it.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:11:00

And then she tells us she was 19. Yeah.

Alison Langer 00:11:02

So we get a little backstory. We always love to talk about the structure. I think people are struggling with that. How do I tell this story? It's a creation story. It's not just name the Creation Of Flesh. It is a creation of story. It's a transition, but also a creation. And a lot of people havenlike reckonings or rebirths or awakenings of some sort, and it could be after cancer, after divorce, after anything. And this is an excellent structure for anybody who's writing that story.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:11:33

That makes me think of the more specific, the more universal, because while most of our listeners haven't gone through this experience, most of our listeners have gone through some kind of transition and have emerged. That's so cool. Okay, so she tells us exactly what she did seven years ago, and then she tells us she was 19 and then we're at that point that drew me in perfectly because I felt her anxiety. I felt scared for her going into surgery and she's going into, like, such a big surgery. I guess every surgery is big, but.

Alison Langer 00:12:14

This is not no, every surgery, yes. Although big because you're going under whatever it is, and you're hoping that whatever it is, if it's a tumor, it's going to be gone. If it's eye surgery, you hope you look better, all those kind of things. But this person is going to wake up different, like a whole other person. I think that's just amazing. That's trust to put into somebody. That's a huge decision.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:12:38

All right, so her surgery is bigger than other surgeries. So she's about to go into this enormous surgery, and then she tells us why. What was I supposed to do with the body I didn't want?

Alison Langer 00:12:50

God, I know, I know.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:12:52

And then she kind of even raises the stakes more right there. She says what she did was she adapted because her only other choice was not to exist at all. I was like, I got chills. She really convinced me that she really felt like she had no choice.

Alison Langer 00:13:12

This is where this narrator could have gone off on a tangent and gone in a totally different direction. But this is what the narrator has to decide when they're writing an essay, a short 1100 or 1200 word essay. Like, okay, now am I going to go and tell how I felt and what it growing up until this point and go off and sidetrack us, even though it's really pertinent and informative information. But she just makes the decision to say, this is how I felt, and keeps moving forward with the surgery because that is what we're writing about here.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:13:47

True, she could have talked about how she adapted, but she didn't. She just said she did and that was enough. That was totally enough. Then she's counting backwards. Why did she say, ten, nine, eight, seven, white, black, six?

Alison Langer 00:14:03

Because I think it's when you're there, that's what you see, like, as you're going under, you see like, first it's like bright, nothing else. You can't because I mean, I remember this when I was going under many surgeries is that they're telling you to count backward and then everything fades and all you see is like a white light, that kind of thing and then it just goes black.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:14:23

Yeah. It was very visual and I felt it. I just wondered if there was more significance that I wasn't getting. Maybe, maybe not.

Alison Langer 00:14:30

I don't think so.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:14:31

Okay. Then she wakes up from surgery. We get a sense of her parents. They're supportive. Her dad is distant, but I felt like he was there for her. But then this part really drew me in. When she's looking at the wall size mirror, I just was so anxious to hear what she was going to see. And then she tells us it's like the blood that was almost black. Everything is flat, gone. And then she's like, "What have I done?" And I feel the despair that she feels like she thought the suffering was going to be over, but the suffering isn't over. She did such a great job talking about the statue that was on its knees, like the hard breasted statue. And then she's like, I fell on my knees too. God, that was so good. And I was just feeling like this sad, sad statue, was darker than she'd ever felt before. "Bitter to the core. No new girl reborn."

Alison Langer 00:15:35

It brought me to a place, though, where I think sometimes with our brains, we think everything is going to be better, if only. But sometimes it just takes our mind a chance to adjust and adapt and get into that new what they say, new normal, that overused term. But it is true. There's a lot of pain sometimes that comes with leaving that person, that thing, whatever it is, behind us as we move forward. I think it's a natural process, and we see this process with her in real time, which I thought was super cool.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:16:10

So there's another example of, like, you might not have had this exact experience, but you may have had an experience where you moved to another town. You're like, if only I was living where I really wanted to live, or if only I had a boyfriend, or if only. And then the reality is not what you thought. But in this case, it was so much bigger. It's so big. It was everything she's always wanted since she was a tiny kid. And now she's like, what? I'm not a new girl reborn. I'm still me. It's still my own mind. This is shit.

Alison Langer 00:16:43

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:16:44

And what about Monstree, the doctor? Very cool.

Alison Langer 00:16:47

Yeah, I really loved that because for him, it was a job and he was proud, like an artist. He did his job, everything. But there's no emotion in a doctor. Well, not all doctors, but especially here. Yeah, I don't know if he was emotional. We didn't get that. I'm getting that there was nothing emotional. And he's like, I gave you what you wanted. What's your problem?

Andrea Askowitz. 00:17:09

Yeah, look at how feminine you look. I built you just so.

Alison Langer 00:17:16

Yeah, but isn't that true about all of us? Like, here we are going out into the world with our exterior, but there's the unfortunate interior in the mind and everything in the heart. He built her beautiful facade, but she still has to get used to it and learn how to be happy like all of us.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:17:32

Yes. And then this line I loved. Now I'm a 25 year old human and a seven year old woman. So she told us at the very beginning that this happened seven years ago, and now she's been a woman for seven years. She's a seven year old woman. That's so well said. And then I thought the ending was really interesting. Your favorite thing is to talk about how hard endings are. And this ending again, I don't think it was what I would have expected. She's not like, oh, and now I'm cool with my woman's body. Instead, she's like, well, now this transition, transitioning. I don't know if she calls herself trans. No, but that's so interesting because what she lands on is she's starting to see the transformation of her body as who she is. Being in transition is her new normal. And who knows how long that's going to last? Maybe that's the rest of her life. And that's kind of really honest.

Alison Langer 00:18:40

Because it's interesting because after I read it, I was like, well, what did you do? How did you become? How did you get to this point? But there wasn't a real answer to that.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:18:48

You mean when you guys were editing?

Alison Langer 00:18:51

Yeah, and you and I even talked about this too. I was like, do you think we should see if we can press on a little bit more, like, I want to know, because we all want the map, the blueprint, how do we get from point A to point B? Where is it?

Andrea Askowitz. 00:19:02

Right?

Alison Langer 00:19:02

But the reality is there isn't one.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:19:05

Right. We're not quite yet at point B.

Alison Langer 00:19:07

I don't even know if we're ever going to get to point B. Are we ever going to get to point A to point B? We're all trying to make our way towards this ideal place that we think we should get to. And there's really no map. The how- tos only get you through to tomorrow, or like, to the point where this person is. But maybe you're not even at the end yet.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:19:25

Right. No one's at the end yet.

Alison Langer 00:19:27

No, no one's at the end yet. But specifically in this story, she says, I'm learning to live inside something that's not my own. I'm learning to accept this body. I'm starting to be able to express myself in looks and clothing, sexuality is a factor, all that kind of stuff. That's what she does on a daily basis. And I feel like all of us do that on a daily basis. We're learning to be the people we want to be. So that's why I just loved it. It's so specific, but it is 100% universal because we are all in transformation or transition.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:20:00

Yeah. Damn.

Alison Langer 00:20:02

Do you feel like there's something that you're always in transition with?

Andrea Askowitz. 00:20:06

Yeah. Getting famous.

Alison Langer 00:20:08

Okay. Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:20:08

That wasn't hard. I thought of it immediately, like, I'm always just on the verge.

Alison Langer 00:20:15

But no matter how much you get published, you still don't think you've come yet. Like you haven't arrived. Is it the book? And then you get one another one published. You got one published, tons of essays, you're all over the place. Washington Post, New York Times, like you're in.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:20:28

Go on.

Alison Langer 00:20:29

Yeah. Huffington Post, like you're in every place you want to be, but you just want this last book, this book that you've been farming out, trying to get published forever. Well, I don't want to say forever because it hasn't been forever, it's only been seven years. Anybody else would look at you and be like, well, she got a book published, she has all this stuff, and yet you're not where you want to be.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:20:53

I mean, maybe like Ariane, at some point I'll get to a point where I'm accepting. The problem for me, and I feel like my issue is so minor compared to Ariane's, but am I always going to be that woman wearing a sandwich board? Probably. And at some point, I'm just going to have to be okay with it. I am okay with it. I think that's going to be the cover of my book, "Attention Whore". You're going to see a picture of me and I'm going to be wearing a sandwich board, and that's going to be the cover and then maybe it's going to be like a scene of New York City and all these people rushing by and no one's paying attention to me. And then on the back, you'll see me in the sandwich board and I'm like, desert. And no one's there. I'm just standing alone in a desert with my sandwich board like buy my book.

Alison Langer 00:21:45

But I feel like all authors are like that. Unless you're like James Patterson or Stephen King or something like that. But I feel like everybody is hustling.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:21:53

True, but not everyone has this feeling, I don't think, or maybe a lot of people do, of not quite having arrived. So what's yours? Where are you in transition?

Alison Langer 00:22:05

Money the same shit. I feel like I have enough to survive. I'm doing just fine. I can make money, everything's going well, I'm doing exactly what I want to do. But it's just when I plan a trip, I have to count my pennies. When I buy something. Do I really need this? I want to just be able to be like, yeah, here. I want to be generous. I want to be able to throw it around. I want to feel like I've made it.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:22:30

So I'm going to ask you the same question. If you won the lottery, would you feel like you had enough?

Alison Langer 00:22:35

No, because then I want to get published. I want all my books. Like, I want everything out there and then I want that.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:22:41

No, in terms of money, like, let's say that you stepped on a bag full of cash in the park and it was like a million dollars. Would that be enough? Or would you be like, no, because now I want to buy this and this and this and this.

Alison Langer 00:22:55

No, that would be enough. I don't care about I mean, I would buy a new car because I would like some bluetooth in my car and it's 17 years old and it's not even mine, but you know what I'm saying? I wouldn't mind being able to just buy stuff and not worry about it. But before I had kids, I did feel very happy financially. I just wasn't spending that much. I'm not that person.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:23:16

Well, then your example is different because you're saying you would feel like you arrived.

Alison Langer 00:23:22

I'd find something new because that's who we are, always. So yeah, I guess in this general example, you reach a point, but mentally, I don't know, because I'm not there. Maybe I wouldn't feel that way, but I think I would. But once you got your book published, would that be enough?

Andrea Askowitz. 00:23:37

No, I'm pretty sure no, I'm pretty sure I'll never feel like I've arrived.

Alison Langer 00:23:43

Do you think that's good? Maybe it's good and maybe it's a challenge. Maybe it's what keeps us moving forward and excited.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:23:50

Right.

Alison Langer 00:23:52

They enjoy the process.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:23:53

Exactly.

Alison Langer 00:23:54

That's what we've come to. And I think that's where Ariane is, too, that she's, like, starting to see the transition. And I get the feeling happy with where she's moving in that general direction.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:24:06

She's become comfortable with the transition.

Alison Langer 00:24:09

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:24:17

Thank you, Ariane Malfait, for your beautiful story in making us think. Oh, and thank you for listening, I forgot that part. For links to Ariane's work. What do we have? Do we have her website?

Alison Langer 00:24:32

She has a Medium account and an Instagram account.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:24:35

So we'll have her Medium account and an Instagram account in our show notes. Writing class Radio is hosted by me, Andrea Askowitz.

Alison Langer 00:24:43

And me, Alison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:24:45

Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan

Alison Langer 00:25:37

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz. 00:25:38

To learn more, go to patreon.com/writingclassradio. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday, and they've been dropping every other Wednesday for 150 episodes.

Alison Langer 00:25:53

I know we're good. All right, there's no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone, everyone, and I mean everyone, has a story. What's yours? Produced and distributed by the SoundOff Media Company.

Show Notes Episode 149: How to Make Your Writing More Personal (in any Field)

On this episode, we bring you a story written by Dr. Jane Marks, a conservation ecologist and professor of Aquatic Ecology at Northern Arizona University (NAU). 

Jane came to Writing Class Radio with the goal of making her academic writing more personal. What she didn’t realize is that writing class, specifically writing personal essays, forces the narrator to go deep and ask the question WHY? Why am I writing this? Why does anyone care? Why is this important to me? Why do I care so much about what people think?

Jane’s story is called, Hating Brussel Sprouts Is Not My Biggest Problem. It could have been called The More Things Change, the More Brussels Sprouts Stay the Same. She wrote this essay in First Draft, worked on it in Second Draft, and when Jane felt she had answered the whys, she submitted it to the podcast. 

Jane has been taking classes with Writing Class Radio for almost two years. Until we read her bio, we had no idea what a badass she is. Jane TOTALLY downplays her brilliance! 

Jane Marks was featured as the lead scientist in the PBS documentary, A River Reborn: The Restoration of Fossil Creek, narrated by actor Ted Danson and she co-produced the video documentary Parched: The Art of Water in the Southwest. For more Dr. Jane Marks, go to https://ecoss.nau.edu/team/jane-marks/

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Emia.

There’s more writing class on our website including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats, and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. 

For $35/month you can join our First Draft weekly writers groups. You have the option to join Allison, Tuesdays 12-1 ET and/or Zorina Frey Wednesdays 7-8pm ET. You’ll write to a prompt and share what you wrote.

Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to www.Patreon.com/writingclassradio. Or sign up HERE for First Draft for a FREE Zoom link.

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

Allison Langer 00:00:07

Hi, I'm Alison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz 00:00:09

I'm Andrea Ascawitz, and this is writing class radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story. By art, we mean the crowd writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our sheet. There's no place in the world like writing class, and we want to bring you in.

Allison Langer 00:00:39

So today we're bringing you a story written by Dr. Jane Marks, a conservation, ecologist and professor of aquatic ecology at Northern Arizona University. Jane has been taking classes with Writing class radio for almost two years, and until I read her bio, I actually had no idea what a badass she was.

Andrea Askowitz 00:00:59

Nope.

Allison Langer 00:01:00

She totally downplays her brilliance. Yep, I think she dumbs it down for us.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:05

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Jane. Thanks. Thank you.

Allison Langer 00:01:09

Jane came to writing class with the goal of making her academic writing more personal. What she didn't realize is that writing class, specifically writing personal essay, forces the narrator to go deep and ask the questions, why? Why am I writing this? Why does anyone care? Why is this a thing for me? Why do I care so much about what people think? Jane wrote this essay in first draft, worked on it in second draft, and when she felt she had answered the whys, she submitted to Writing class radio. We'll be back with Jane's story after the break. We're back.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:48

I'm Andrea Askowitz and this is writing class radio. Here is Dr. Jane Marks with her story called hating Brussels. Sprouts is not my biggest problem.

Dr/.Jane Marks 00:02:01

The foulst place on the planet is the center of a Brussels sprout. As a graduate student 25 years ago, I was eating dinner at my advisor, Mary's house. I had earlier express disdain for Brussels sprouts, and she, like many, said no. You haven't tried my Brussels sprouts. Not again, I thought. I can't tell you how many people have said, you haven't tried my Brussels sprouts. Mary often treated graduate students in her lab to home cooked meal. Eight of us at her dining room table passed platters of chicken and pasta. She brought in a pan from the kitchen. Jane, these are for you. They're delicious. Sauteed and caramelized onions. I'm not going to like them, I warned. Just try one, she said, putting three on my plate. Even caramelized onion can't mask the odor of a Brussels sprout. I was in the biology program at Berkeley, where your relationship with your advisor was important. Faculty advisors funded your research, helped you publish papers, and wrote letters of recommendation. If I didn't eat or, Brussels sprouts would have jeopardized my career, I looked on my plate, and all I could see were three vomit green wrinkly balls. Every time I looked down, the sprouts had expanded their territory. The outer leaves were sloughing off, making contact with the chicken breast. The juices were seeping into the crevices of the pasta spirals. My entire dinner was under siege. I tried to swallow one hole with water like an aspirin. I put it as far back in my mouth as I could, hoping to avoid direct contact with its center. But the center asserted itself, shooting a burst of bitterness from my throat back into my mouth. I almost puked. There were two more. Mary had a large pet box turtle named Ishmael who lived in an aquarium in the dining room. I haven't said a load of ishmael yet, I said, getting out of my chair and standing over the aquarium. Taking a break mid meal to engage in conversation with a reptile is not that uncommon for a biologist. I waited until Mary went to the kitchen. As soon as she pushed through the swinging door, I grabbed the Brussels sprouts from my plate and hid them under the rocks that furnisheshma's home. Using his usual food lettuce as camouflage, I made it back to my seat before the kitchen door swung open and she reentered the dining room. No one seemed to notice. When Mary cleared my plate, she said, jane, you ate your Brussels sprouts? Didn't I tell you they just need to be cooked right? A few years ago, we got a Vitamix and superfood smoothie recipe. My husband Bruce loves to make smoothies. The recipes involve complex ingredients like rosemary, spire, lena or hemp seeds. He often leaves the glass in the refrigerator for me. One morning, there was a smoothie that looked like a French vanilla milkshake. I took a sip and gagged. I figured it was too close to toothpaste and made soft boiled eggs. Being the open minded person that I am, I gave it another try. A few hours later, I took a micro sip that provoked a macro gag. I couldn't place the flavor and wondered if he threw the compost in the Vitamix. Later, he asked how I liked the smoothie. Disgusting. What was in it? Stuff. What stuff? He finally confessed that it had raw Brussels sprouts. He likes to tell the story because he, too, is a scientist and thinks the blind taste test provides objective evidence that I hate Brussels sprouts. Isn't asking my opinion and listening to my response to evidence enough? I have a divorce lawyer on Speed Dal if he tries that stunt again. Brussels sprouts champions often promote their health benefits. A single serving provides 200% of the daily requirement of the bone strengthening vitamin K. Who needs 200% of any vitamin? Sometimes I push food on others, but it's different. My husband Bruce and I were at a restaurant for dessert. I said, I'll get the apple crisp. You could get the molten chocolate cake. No, thanks. He said you go ahead. I ordered the apple crisp with two spoons. When the waiter asked about ice cream, I said, we'll have an order of molten chocolate cake, too, on the side. How can anyone enjoy dessert if the person across the table is smugly abstaining? When my father in law does not want my homemade eggplant parmesan, my initial reaction is that he must be wrong about eggplant. How can anyone not like eggplant? Then I wonder if it's me he doesn't like. Times have changed since I pond my Brussels sprouts on Ismail, who lived another 20 years. A long life for a turtle. Maybe it was the vitamin K. Brussels sprouts have had a revival. Mary retired. Now I'm the advisor. I have half a dozen graduate students working under my direction. I often meet my students at a brew pub and buy the first round, passing on the generosity I learned from Mary. A few weeks ago, I was enjoying an IPA when a server brought a platter of brussels sprouts. Brussels sprouts at a ru pub. There ought to be a lot. Who ordered this? I asked. Chill out, Jane, said the student who put in the order. I would never have said that to Mary. I swallowed that putrid green ball for the sake of my career. Or did I? These students don't seem to care about kissing my ass. They seem to know I judge students on their work alone. Maybe Mary did, too. Let's rearrange the table, I said. The Brussels sprouts and brussels sprouts people can go to one end and the civilized people to the other. All the students responded at once. Stop busting us around. It's happy hour. You go to another table. They're delicious. Just try one.

Allison Langer 00:08:20

Okay. So I just want to say, this little Brussels sprouts story tells us so much about the narrator, and I just thought that was super cool.

Andrea Askowitz 00:08:31

Are you saying one dark green wrinkly ball told us so much about this narrator?

Allison Langer 00:08:38

Yeah. And you can't tell that our previous episode was about a manasha TWA because now we're totally sexualizing every story.

Andrea Askowitz 00:08:46

Yeah, she's the one who called it a green wrinkly ball. But, yeah, we learned so much about her.

Allison Langer 00:08:52

It's really cool because I don't remember if this came from first draft, but I think write about a food you dislike or something like that. And these prompts always seem like, why.

Andrea Askowitz 00:09:02

Are we doing this?

Allison Langer 00:09:03

What is that going to do? And it's always trying to go deep, deep, deep to try to figure out why is it you hate these things, and how has the hatred of this one particular food shaped your life? Do you have one?

Andrea Askowitz 00:09:16

A food I hate?

Allison Langer 00:09:17

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz 00:09:17

I hate liver. I hate you. I know. Gross. I hate Spanish olives.

Allison Langer 00:09:24

Hate olives. I hate capes, too.

Andrea Askowitz 00:09:27

I do remember that I was on a date. This is before Vicki and this woman made dinner for me, and she made this salmon with capers.

Allison Langer 00:09:34

Did you eat it?

Andrea Askowitz 00:09:35

No, because I was like and before that, I was like, oh, yeah. I eat everything because I think of myself as someone who eats everything, so okay, that relationship didn't last.

Allison Langer 00:09:45

I hate eggs. I hate olives. But I hate eggs because people don't care if you don't eat their olives, but if you don't eat eggs like, my dad is always like, oh, you want me to come over and make some eggs? I'm like and my kids are like.

Andrea Askowitz 00:09:56

Grandpa mom is 55.

Allison Langer 00:09:59

He never liked Dangs. And he's like, oh, okay. But he asks all the time. It's like, one day.

Andrea Askowitz 00:10:05

Well, that's a different story. Why can't he remember? Yeah, but he used to cook them.

Allison Langer 00:10:09

For me when I was sick, and I didn't want to hurt his feelings, so I remember trying to down him kind of like the aspirin, like just open and swallow and, like eating a fish hole or something.

Andrea Askowitz 00:10:19

Did it rot you out when the narrator didn't brush her teeth or did brush her teeth and then thought it was just her toothpaste, so then she made eggs.

Allison Langer 00:10:27

It's the smell. No, but these things people don't understand. And I've said it just like we always think that yeah, my Brussels sprouts are going to love my Brussels sprouts.

Andrea Askowitz 00:10:38

I hate mushrooms.

Allison Langer 00:10:39

All mushrooms, like, even cooked and sauteed and everything.

Andrea Askowitz 00:10:41

Yeah, and they stink so bad.

Allison Langer 00:10:43

Mushrooms have no smell.

Andrea Askowitz 00:10:45

Yeah, they do. They smell like butt. And I know what butt smells like, and so do you. Everyone knows what butt smells like. I'm telling you, it smells. I don't like it. So it's sort of like the way Brussels sprouts smell.

Allison Langer 00:10:57

But what's really funny is this very specific story, and we say this all the time, brings up a universal understanding, which I think is amazing.

Andrea Askowitz 00:11:07

I actually thought this story when I just listened to it this time. I thought the story was about the more things change, the more things stay the same. What? No. Alice is giving me, like, no face because I feel like there's a legacy kind of thing. She used to be the grad student, now she's the advisor. But her students, they don't kiss her ass. But the story is about how it was really the same. She didn't need to kiss her professor's ass either. See, I won you over. Right?

Allison Langer 00:11:40

Well, she yeah, I think that we come to that, and that's that, to me, was the turning point. And why this essay was so impactful is that these things that we live with for all these years and these things that we do that we think are going to do one thing for us. So she thought if she kissed this ass, that she would be accepted, but really, she was already accepted. She comes to realize that it had nothing to do with the food or anything like that. And we think that what's on the outside or how we treat the whole thing. But people love us. They love you. They love you. And I think in this story. She was doing great work, and her adviser loved her. And just like she loves her students, and if somebody just said, oh, I don't want to eat such and such, she wouldn't care.

Andrea Askowitz 00:12:26

No, exactly. Yeah. So she comes to realize that she did not have to swallow those Brussels sprouts whole or feed them to Ishmael although that's funny. To get her advisors approval. So can we go through it and talk about how funny she is?

Allison Langer 00:12:40

No, let's do it.

Andrea Askowitz 00:12:41

Or she's not. She's, like, the foulest place on earth. She's funny already. The aspirin.

Allison Langer 00:12:48

The funniest part is that the vomit green wrinkly balls. I mean, that's the way she even sees them. And then the juice creeping out and tried to swallow one, like aspirin. So she injects humor in here, and that's just her way, which is so cool.

Andrea Askowitz 00:13:05

Oh, yeah. Her entire dinner was under siege. Yeah, that's good.

Allison Langer 00:13:09

And just the fact that she gets up to do that. There's two types of people. There's one person who says, I can't eat those. I'm sorry, these are not something that I eat. But then there's also Jane, who, instead of sucking it up and just eating them, finds something to do with them. Like a kid. She has, like, a kid's mind, a kid's sense of humor. Like, kids would put them in their pocket or drop them on the floor or something like that. And Jane does the kid thing, which I thought was so cute.

Andrea Askowitz 00:13:36

Taking a break mid meal to engage in conversation with a reptile is not that uncommon for a biologist. Loved it.

Allison Langer 00:13:44

I'm just so endeared.

Andrea Askowitz 00:13:46

She is a kid. You're so right.

Allison Langer 00:13:48

But then at this one point, she's ragging on all these people who are pushing food on her. And then she admits that she does that with the eggplant. And so that's another way. Like, we talk about vulnerable narrators or likable narrator. And in this case, we love this narrator because she kind of pokes fun at herself and then she says, I do the same thing. So she's not, like, a self righteous bitch.

Andrea Askowitz 00:14:14

True. And then in that moment where she was questioning whether or not her father in law liked her eggplant, she really questioned whether her father in law liked her. So she gave us sort of, like, her mental state that was, like, proof for us to understand why she felt like she needed to eat those Brussels.

Allison Langer 00:14:37

Sprouts without saying it. So she showed us, like, really without saying, I'm this type of person, which is really cool.

Andrea Askowitz 00:14:45

There was another part that I thought was funny that we passed over. I just thought the way that she said that her husband thought that the blind taste test proved or provided objective evidence. So she's using, like, the language of science to me. I just love it. Brilliant.

Allison Langer 00:15:02

Love it.

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:03

She wondered if he had put the compost in the Vitamix.

Allison Langer 00:15:06

Oh, my god, that's so funny.

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:08

She's like, Why does anyone need 200% of any vitamin? And then when Ishma lived 20 years, she's like, well, could have been the.

Allison Langer 00:15:16

Vitamin K. She brings it back. She brings it back. Yeah, which I love, because then we know why she dropped that in. We're like, oh, yeah, we heard that call back really good.

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:25

And then we get to the end, and then we already talked about it. But I do think the story is about times have changed, but times haven't changed, and what the narrator learns is that she didn't have to bend over backwards and in this case, swallow nasty Brusselspots. Do you like Brussels spots?

Allison Langer 00:15:43

Love?

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:44

I don't like them that much raw cooked.

Allison Langer 00:15:47

Have you tried mine?

Andrea Askowitz 00:15:53

No. I only like them when they're, like, cooked to the extreme, like, when they're pretty much cooked beyond recognition, and you just cannot tell because they are bitter to me. And look, I eat everything.

Allison Langer 00:16:05

By the way, that salad I made you the other night with the peanut sauce?

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:09

Yeah.

Allison Langer 00:16:10

That was raw brussels sprouts. Shredded.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:12

Really? With that's it I thought it was just cabbage.

Allison Langer 00:16:16

No.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:17

Wow.

Allison Langer 00:16:18

Maybe it's a cooked thing that it becomes bitter as it's cooked.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:22

Maybe.

Allison Langer 00:16:22

Or the smell. I don't know.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:24

We're going to have to talk to a scientist, but I don't know.

Allison Langer 00:16:27

Do you think Jane would want to discuss this?

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:28

Or maybe we have to talk to Bruce, maybe. Yeah, because it seems like Jane can't even talk about Brussels sprouts.

Allison Langer 00:16:35

Like.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:37

Yeah, that's how she is about them.

Allison Langer 00:16:40

I love it. So I want to bring up something that I don't know that we talk about this very much, but lately I feel like we have been getting so many phone calls from business people saying, how do I make my speeches or my writing more personal? And basically, how do I have to.

Andrea Askowitz 00:17:00

Say that I am part of the campaign team for Helen Gimb, who's running for mayor, the first female mayor of Philadelphia hired go ahead. Okay, I did it.

Allison Langer 00:17:13

I'm doing it.

Andrea Askowitz 00:17:15

Hired to me to personalize her campaign speeches. In May of 2023, we will know if our work paid off. I think it will hell and for mayor of Philadelphia, but okay, to your point, a lot of people are calling us and asking us to help them personalize their writing and their and you're talking about writing in other realms. Oh, yeah.

Allison Langer 00:17:39

But this is totally 100% today it happened again, right? Yes. And it's the the thing is, is that and I've been bitching about this for eight, nine years now in our schools, we're really not teaching personal essay. So the kids are getting great writing lessons on how to compare literature or write a five paragraph essay or something very departmental. But what they're not doing is learning how to inject themselves and get personal and vulnerable, so it carries over. So now they're business people, grownups and they're like, Something's wrong here. People aren't responding to me. People are bored with what I'm writing. How do I make it more interesting and more personal? So, anyway, so Jane and Bruce, both scientists, have started taking our classes a couple years back now, and they just really wanted to personalize their scientific writing. They wanted to be able to make their writing more interesting.

Andrea Askowitz 00:18:42

Yeah, because everybody knows that what connects people to each other is personal stories. So people know that now, they just don't really know how to do it.

Allison Langer 00:18:51

Yeah. You have been also helping people. Well, we both were, but mostly you going into businesses and helping people tell their stories.

Andrea Askowitz 00:18:59

Right. So realtors and entrepreneurs, people who I did it for, like the philanthropists, like, I've done it a bunch of times, it's so much fun to talk to non writers about how to personalize. And that's what I did at the Trustees Council for Penn Women, just taught them how to personalize their own stories.

Allison Langer 00:19:20

Yeah. And people are so scared.

Andrea Askowitz 00:19:22

It always slightly scandalizes them, but then they're like, oh, then they tone it.

Allison Langer 00:19:26

Down and tell their story. But you know what? Sometimes you have to be extreme to get people's attention. But what it does is it draws people to you. It does not push people away. So many people are afraid to show who they really are. But from our experience, we've learned that the more you tell, the more people want to know and want to share.

Andrea Askowitz 00:19:47

The more vulnerable anyone is in any capacity. That's what I think. Like, if you're running for mayor, if you're a philanthropist, if you're a realtor, the more personal you are, the more attractive you are in your business. And that's true, too, for scientists. And that's what Jane and Bruce, I think, are learning. So that's so cool because Jane did have to you were talking to me earlier about how our narrator today has learned to ask a lot of questions, like, why does this matter to me? Why did I feel like I had to eat that Brussels sprout? Why do I care now? And that's what her story reveals for us, is all the answers to those wise.

Allison Langer 00:20:32

And then it not only helps us understand ourselves, but it does help us understand other people. It's all around amazing. So we're not necessarily trying to sell ourselves, though. We're always up for sale. But we just wanted to point that.

Andrea Askowitz 00:20:43

Out here because I thought I was the whore.

Allison Langer 00:20:46

I don't even have an answer to that. Yeah, we're all horrors because people are scared. I know that many times we both told stories, and they're like, how could you have published that? And yet, as people, I think I've grown as a person. I've grown so much since I started sharing my stories, and I like myself better.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:09

I like you better.

Allison Langer 00:21:10

Thanks.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:11

And I like this narrator better.

Allison Langer 00:21:13

Jane Marks was featured as the lead scientist in the PBS documentary A River Reborn the Restoration of Fossil Creek, narrated by actor Ted Danson. And she also produced the video documentary Parched the Art of Water in the Southwest. For more Dr. Jane Marks, go to ECOSS nau.edu team Janemarks and we will have that in our show notes thank you for listening. And thank you, Jane, for sharing your story writing class. Radio is hosted by me, Alison Lang.

Andrea Askowitz 00:22:00

Me andrea Askowitz. Audience. I'm me.

Allison Langer 00:22:04

Andrea. Audio production is by Matt Cundilll that's me. Evan Surmonsku and Aidan Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Emia. There's more writing class on a radio writing there's more writing class on our website writingclassradio.com, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Join our community by following us on Patreon. For $35 a month, you can join our first draft weekly writers group. You have the option to join me on Tuesdays, twelve to one Eastern time and or Zorina Frey Wednesdays, seven to 08:00 p.m.. Eastern time. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers. To sign up, go to patreon.com. Writingclassradio a new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Andrea Askowitz 00:23:03

There is no better way to understand ourselves and each other than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?

Show Notes Episode 148: How to Plan a Threesome

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Pamela Druckerman that has voice, laugh out loud humor, and self knowing, which makes for a reliable narrator. The best part is the narrator doesn’t wait until the end to give a status report. We feel like we are on the adventure with her.

There are so many things the narrator does well in this essay including normalizing a threesome. She does this by using language and humor to bring the listener into her adventure with her husband. You do not want to miss this episode. 

Pamela Druckerman is a journalist, an Emmy-winning documentary producer, and the author of five books including Bringing Up Bébé, which has been translated into 31 languages. This essay is adapted from her book There Are No Grown-Ups: A midlife coming-of-age story. Get it here from our favorite Indie, Books & Books. 

Writing Class Radio is hosted by Allison Langer and Andrea Askowitz. Audio production by Matt Cundill, Evan Surminski, and Aiden Glassey at the Sound Off Media Company. Theme music is by Emia.

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Join the community that comes together for instruction, an excuse to write, and most importantly, the support from other writers.

A new episode will drop every other WEDNESDAY. 

There’s no better way to understand ourselves and each other, than by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

If you would like a transcript of the episode read below:

Andrea Askowitz 00:00:07

I'm Andrea Askowitz.

Allison Langer 00:00:09

I'm Alison Langer, and this is writing class radio. You'll hear true personal stories and learn how to write your own stories. Together, we produce this podcast, which is equal parts heart and art. By heart, we mean the truth in a story, and by art, we mean the craft of writing. No matter what's going on in our lives, writing Class is where we tell the truth. It's where we work out our shit. There's no place in the world like Writing Class. And we want to bring you in.

Andrea Askowitz 00:00:36

Today on our show, we bring you a story by Pamela Druckerman that just cracks me up. I know it's not like it might be bad to say that a story is funny because now the expectation is that that story is going to be really funny. But this story, I really think it'll meet those expectations.

Allison Langer 00:00:55

This story has a voice. And you will see in this episode that it's not just humor, but it's also self knowing. And that makes for a really reliable narrator. So instead of waiting till the very end to give us a status report and show us what she's learned and see the arc of the narrator, she sort of tunes in to show us where she is, how she's feeling, and what she's learned. So it's kind of a version of higher Register, but it's like her higher register for herself. And we'll explain all that in the episode, so stay tuned.

Andrea Askowitz 00:01:28

So I want to tell you how I know Pamela. It's funny because I often think of writing and tennis as like I compare them. Like I conflate them. I kind of think they're the same. So, 100 years ago, I met Pamela Druckerman. Well, actually, it's more like she met me playing tennis at the Courts of Lazarus. Like, I was probably, like 1011, and she was a little younger, and I think I was a little better. So she remembers me. It's true. Oh, my God.

Allison Langer 00:01:59

I'm shaking my head because as if you're like, Are we competitive?

Andrea Askowitz 00:02:03

Yeah, we are. So here's the thing. Times have changed. The tables have turned. Because now I totally look up to Pamela Druckerman.

Allison Langer 00:02:15

She's kicking your ass, my friend, I'm sorry to say. She's a fucking bunch of books and.

Andrea Askowitz 00:02:20

Probably yeah, she does. And she is like she is the writer I want to be. She is so good. She's an essayist. She wrote the book. There are no grown ups. She wrote another book. Bringing Up Babe. Did I say that right? Babe? Are you one of those people who took French instead of Spanish?

Allison Langer 00:02:42

Maybe.

Andrea Askowitz 00:02:45

Yeah. Okay. We're saying this because Pamela Druckerman lives in France. The only thing I know in French is okay.

Allison Langer 00:02:58

Really? You're so cliche. That is the worst. God.

Andrea Askowitz 00:03:02

My point is, I totally admire and follow Pamela Druckerman, and you will, too, after you hear this story.

Pam Druckerman 00:03:11

Yeah.

Andrea Askowitz 00:03:12

Pamela Druckerman is a journalist, an Emmy winning documentary producer and the author of five books, including Bringing Up Bebe...

Allison Langer 00:03:22

Can I just say that people in France speak, like, ten languages and we can't even pronounce Bebe?

Andrea Askowitz 00:03:27

Well, Bringing Up Bebe has been translated into 31 languages, so how do you say it in English?

Allison Langer 00:03:33

Shit, baby.

Andrea Askowitz 00:03:35

The essay you're about to hear was adapted from her book there Are No Grownups of Midlife Coming of Age story. We'll be back with Pamela's story. Oh, and it's called how to Plan a Menage a Trois. They Say. That right. How to plan a threesome.

Allison Langer 00:03:54

That's easier.

Andrea Askowitz 00:03:56

We'll be back with Pamela's story after the break. We're back.

Allison Langer 00:04:01

I'm Alison Langer, and this is writing class radio. Here's Pamela Druckerman with her story how to Plan a Menage a Trois.

Pam Druckerman 00:04:15

The question on my husband's birthday is always what do you get for the man who has nothing? For his 40th birthday, I had my eye on a vintage watch. It would complement his tattered sweaters and declare to the world that he is, in fact, employed. But when I mention this to him, he says what he really wants isn't a good, but a service. A threesome with me and another woman. He'd voiced this fantasy before. So had practically every guy I'd ever dated. But this time I say yes. I should say that we are normally quite dull. We don't swing or have an open marriage. Indeed, the idea of a threesome is so exotic that for a few weeks it just sits there. I occasionally mention the name of a female friend. Would she be acceptable? Absolutely, he says. It turns out that all of my girlfriends and practically all of the spouses of his friends would potentially make the cut. He doesn't want to spoil his chances by being picky. Although I'm a novice, I'm pretty sure that getting someone we know well would be a mistake. There's the enormous potential for awkwardness, and I don't want someone creating a wedge in our cozy tuesome. I'm envisioning this as a one off anyway, I wouldn't know which friend to ask. Straight women don't tend to compare same sex fantasies. It's hard to know who'd be tempted and who'd be appalled. After I say yes, I get an email from an editor wondering if I have ideas for a personal essay. As a freelancer, I'm not used to being asked to write anything. I quickly sent her three possibilities making friends in Paris, where we now live, the travails of renovating my kitchen in French, and planning a threesome for my husband's birthday. I honestly don't realize that there's an obvious frontrunner. Soon I have a contract to deliver an essay titled 40th Birthday Threesome. To be fair, I was planning to have the threesome anyway, but now I'm contractually obligated. We rule out advertising online. Since that seems like an open call for venereal disease, we decide that the ideal candidate would be a sexy acquaintance. She'd be vetted everyone as acquaintances don't have herpes, but easy to avoid afterward. A candidate soon emerges. She's a friend of a friend I've met at dinner parties, but whose name I can never remember. By chance, she's seated behind us at a concert with a man who appears to be her date. For the first time, I noticed that she's quite pretty. How about her? I whisper to my husband. Yes, he says too loudly. After the concert, the four of us chat. I make firm eye contact with the woman who I figured out is named Emma, act fascinated by her views on the music, and wait for my window to suggest that she and I meet for lunch. She seems flattered. A few days later, we exchange emails and make plans to have Thai food. I get gussied up and am pleased to see when I arrive, that she has too. Does she know she's on a date? Usually I'm so concerned about what other people think of me that my lunch companion could be bleeding to death and I wouldn't notice. But pursuing the threesome has made me more attentive over soup. I listen carefully to Emma and quickly understand something that would have once taken me years to notice under a pond of sassiness is a lagoon of insecurity. She clings to boyfriends who mistreat her, convinced that she doesn't deserve them. This probably means that she's too emotionally fragile for a threesome, but I decide to broach the topic anyway, at least to get some practice. I do this under the guise of exchanging girly confidences, saying, you won't believe what my husband wants for his birthday. I tell her that I've agreed to it in principle, but that I haven't yet found the third party. I think she gets that I'm propositioning her, but instead of taking the bait, she becomes the Cassandra of threesomes. She describes the rogue ex boyfriend who pressured her to go to bed with him and his former lover, and the friend of hers who swap partners and never swap back. And what if it's someone who's incredibly hot? How could you possibly handle that? Not only is Emma out of the running, she talks of future lunch dates at other Asian restaurants. I'm suddenly sympathetic to those male friends of mine who disappeared when I got engaged. Why stick around? That night I tell my husband about that date, which cost me €50 and ate up half my work day. Thanks for taking care of that, he says without looking up from his computer. It's exactly what he says when I've waited home all morning for the plumber. Planning this threesome has become another one of the administrative tasks I do in our marriage. Nevertheless, my new man's eye view of the world is thrilling. I notice women everywhere browsing in bookstores, in line, at the supermarket. I even scan my book group, middle aged expatriates who like to read about the Holocaust for candidates. My posture toward the world has changed. Instead of sitting pretty and hoping that others notice me. I've become someone who decides what she wants and goes after it. Putting this once furtive fantasy on the table is Energizing. Threesomes suddenly seem to be everywhere, although the messages about them are paradoxical. Every straight guy wants to have one, but no one's had a good one. A male friend tells me that in his threesome, one of the women had a serious, unrecipircated crush on him. A character on Gossip Girl explains, inside every threesome is a twosome and a onesome. I'm undaunted, but no closer to finding a candidate. I decide to have a look at some websites. Perhaps not everyone on them has gone aria. I quickly see that we have competition. The couples all claim to be gorgeous in under 30. Since I can't compete on looks or age, I distinguish myself by sounding desperate. I'd like to give my partner his best birthday present ever an experience with me and another woman. Will you help me? 15 minutes later, I get a reply that's literate and nice. Hi. I also have a boyfriend with the same fantasy. Not very original, I know, but boys will be boys. Maybe we could end up doing a deal, though not necessarily. If we'd like each other, I'd be happy to help out. What kind of scenario did you have in mind? She signs it N. It may seem imprudent to pledge loyalty to an anonymous bisexual woman who trolls no strings websites, but I decide on the spot that I won't respond to anyone else. I like her sisterly tone and her perfect spelling. I'm not sure about the exchange deal, but that doesn't seem to be mission critical for her. Although when I read the email to my husband that night, he says, I'll swap you. We exchange more emails. I call myself P. It turns out that N is a straight, divorced, disease free mom in her 40s. She's relieved to hear that I have kids too. She quotes the French expression one need not die an idiot. I agree. We decide to meet for coffee. As I'm getting ready to go meet her silk sweater, dress, foundation, mascara I'm suddenly struck by the strangeness of what I'm about to do try to convince a stranger to sleep with me and my husband. I'm nervous. How do I persuade a woman to take off her clothes? My husband, who spent years of his life addressing exactly this challenge, gives me a pep talk. With women, you have to listen to all the stuff they say, he explains. They have these complex emotional issues, and you have to figure out what they are. Just keep asking questions. Be pleasant and reassuring, but also slightly mysterious. I'm already sitting down when En walks into the cafe. She's a slim, pretty brunette with a friendly face. Her makeup is fresh. She must be eager to make a good impression too. I am certain that my husband will like her I try to seem riveted as she describes her boyfriend woes her life as a single mom, and the health issues of her elderly father. Despite the peculiar circumstances, she's clinging to the conventions of female bonding. I steer the conversation towards sex. She says she's never been with another woman and isn't sure how she'll feel about it. She doesn't mention the possible swap. When I show her a picture of my husband, she just glances for her. This is about the two of us. We part warmly with a chaste, double cheek kiss. I wait several days before sending her a note telling her she's been in my thoughts and that I found her charming in every way. She replies immediately, saying that she's very game for our adventure, but that she'd like to meet again to discuss our plans in more detail. Plans? I'd imagine the threesome unfolding spontaneously, but by now I'm goal oriented. If that's what she needs, I'll do it. At our second meeting. Her insecurities surface do I think this counts as cheating on her boyfriend? Of course not. What kind of women does my husband like? Brunettes. We lay down some ground rules to avoid it getting too thrusty and porn like. The two of us will be in charge. My husband won't make a move unless we allow it. She and I will go to the small furnished apartment he uses as an office, and he'll join us there once we're ready. Do you think he'll agree to these terms? She asks. He'll just be grateful to be in the room, I say. Everything seemed settled, but again we part without fixing the date. I send the usual lovely to see you follow up. She replies that she enjoyed our conversation too, but that she'd like to meet again to talk more about our plans. Again? I'm beginning to doubt she'll go through with this. I'm tired of putting on makeup and I'm running out of dresses. But my husband insists that this is the normal pace of seduction. Obviously she's not ready yet, he says she has some sort of hesitation. You need to work out what it is and help her through it. On my way to the third meeting, I decide to loosen up and be less calculating. I tease her about all the planning and tell her I'm making storyboards and cue cards. I confess that this is a big deal for me. She says the same. We coquettishly call each other N and P. This playful mood seems to be what was missing for her. After about an hour, she takes out her calendar and we schedule the threesome for a week. Later, over lunchtime, when I get home, my husband is waking up. I decided to just be myself, I tell him. Oh no, he says. A week later, I'm getting ready to meet her. I have a threesome in 2 hours. I keep boasting to myself. I'm not going to die an idiot. I meet N at a cafe for a quick coffee. Then we head to my husband's office around the corner. On the way, I insist that we stop at a little food stand, where I buy cheese, sausage, honey, and bread in case we work up an appetite later. Clearly, I'm shopping to calm my nerves. But when we get to my husband's office, it's N who's nervous. You're in charge. Okay, she says. Me. We're both relieved when my husband arrives. They introduce themselves. He's immediately very physical with her, which breaks the ice. We have a sort of group hug, and then we agree that he can take off both of our dresses. My first surprise is that women are allowed to wear jewelry in bed and even keeps her large hoop earrings on. My second is that a threesome is so, well, sexual. I'd focus so much on the logistics and the catering, I almost forgot we'd be naked. My third surprise is that threesomes are confusing. You quickly lose track of who's, at which stage. There's a lot of ambiguous moaning. My husband tells me afterward that he got a little lost too. It's a polite threesome. I get the sense that we're all trying to divide our attention. Equitably. So there's no clear twosome or onesome. Occasionally, Ann and I ask each other, how are you doing? Like old friends. After maybe 40 minutes, I lose interest. I wonder whether I might check my email. I try to stay attentive it's a birthday present, after all. But when I glance at the clock, I'm surprised to see that only an hour has passed. I had no idea that sex could last so long. Finally, they tire themselves out. There's a sweet moment at the end when the three of us lie together under the covers with the birthday boy in the middle. He's beaming. I'll later get a series of heartfelt thank yous from him, saying it was as good as he had hoped. Anne seems very pleased too. On the walk home, she says she's surprised by how erotic she found the whole experience, especially being with me. She hints that she'd like a repeat performance. I'm flattered, but I'm not planning on it. My own birthday is coming up, and I think I'd like a watch.

Andrea Askowitz 00:16:56

Oh, my God. I know. I can't get enough of this story. I freaking love it. It is so funny. She wrote a whole book called There Are No Grown Ups, and this was one of the chapters in it. So if you love this narrator's voice and humor and style, I love There Are No Grownups. The whole Thing is so funny. But this one is so oh, God, it kills me. This one just freaking kills me. For one, she's, like, hilarious. Okay, that's true. But there's something else about her being So funny, because it's not just like, straight up. It's more like she knows herself so well. She knows that she's, like, socially odd.

Allison Langer 00:17:41

Wait, I got a bust in here where I felt very secure in the story. I never felt like this couple was going to break up, so no matter what research she did, I just felt like they were very strong. And I loved that she wasn't, like, pathetic or upset.

Andrea Askowitz 00:17:56

Didn't worry about it.

Allison Langer 00:17:57

No, she's just, like, in it for the fun so we could have fun. So she set the tone with that right away. So I was just in for the ride.

Andrea Askowitz 00:18:06

I didn't even consider that it would be dangerous for her. But you're right, it could have been, but it wasn't. She starts off the very first line is so great. What do you get for a man who has nothing? Switch. I know. Right away, I'm like charmed. Yeah, but wait, what I wanted to get to was that line to one of my favorite lines ever, where toward the end where she tells her husband that she just decided to be herself, and he's like, oh, no.

Allison Langer 00:18:35

Yeah, and like you said, I think when we were listening to it, you were like, oh, my God. She doesn't even comment. And that's beautiful because she lets the reader she doesn't insult the reader.

Andrea Askowitz 00:18:48

No, exactly. Because we already know that she's a bit clumsy because she told us that she would have I can't remember how she said it, but usually when she's having lunch with someone, they could be bleeding to death and she wouldn't notice. That just kills me. She's just so knowing. Oh, I have a question, though. She says straight women don't often compare same sex fantasies. They don't? No.

Allison Langer 00:19:18

Never.

Andrea Askowitz 00:19:19

Bummer.

Allison Langer 00:19:20

Yeah, it's kind of a bummer.

Andrea Askowitz 00:19:22

What about when she says that's when I realized I didn't even realize there was an obvious front runner. So when she's pitching the editor oh.

Allison Langer 00:19:31

God, yeah, that was hilarious. Right away. You're like, hello.

Andrea Askowitz 00:19:37

So she's, like, giving us evidence about what kind of character she is, and I'm not even sure what kind of character is she? Like, I don't even know how to describe her as a character other than being a tiny bit clueless. But then she's so not clueless. That's the genius of this.

Allison Langer 00:19:56

Narrator my favorite part was her shopping around for candidates and her husband when he tells her how to land a woman.

Andrea Askowitz 00:20:06

Okay.

Allison Langer 00:20:07

With women, you have to listen to all the stuff they say, he explained. They have all these complex emotional issues, and you have to try to figure out what they are. Just keep asking questions. Be pleasant and reassuring, but also slightly mysterious. I love that he gave us, like, insight into a man's charm, but that he's telling his wife this. Not another friend, a male friend. I mean, I just thought that was hilarious. Like, you really get a sense of their relationship, which I just thought was so cool. And it really does open your mind to like, well, here there's this stigma around threesomes, but if these people can pull it off, then yeah. She doesn't want to die.

Andrea Askowitz 00:20:45

What was it?

Allison Langer 00:20:46

Die. Boring. What did she call her?

Andrea Askowitz 00:20:48

No.

Allison Langer 00:20:48

Dying an idiot. She's not going to die an idiot.

Andrea Askowitz 00:20:50

Yeah.

Allison Langer 00:20:52

Maybe I don't want to die an idiot either.

Andrea Askowitz 00:20:54

You haven't had a threesome?

Allison Langer 00:20:56

No.

Andrea Askowitz 00:20:57

What? What? Get off. You're going to die an idiot. I know. You know? You have plenty of time.

Allison Langer 00:21:04

Well, Gerald and I used to talk about it. My old boyfriend, you know, Gerald, so he used to tell me that before he died, he wanted a threesome. And so we used to shop around at the gym. It was like a joke that we had. And we did have a crush on this one woman who I ran into recently, and I was like, oh, God. Even though she doesn't know he's gone.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:22

You should tell her.

Allison Langer 00:21:23

No.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:24

Yeah, because maybe she's dating someone. Oh.

Allison Langer 00:21:27

And I could be part of their threesome.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:28

Yeah.

Allison Langer 00:21:30

I don't know. Why are we talking about this? Okay, next.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:32

Okay.

Allison Langer 00:21:33

This is not about us.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:35

I know. Yeah. We never slip in and start talking about our own lives.

Allison Langer 00:21:40

All right, Pamela, we're very sorry. We're getting sidetracked, and we're not talking about you, but we're getting right back to you.

Andrea Askowitz 00:21:48

We're not talking about her story and why it's so great, but there are so many reasons that this story is so great. So we already talked about the voice and the humor, but how it's slightly different, but what about the way she what was it you noticed in the middle of this?

Allison Langer 00:22:01

I noticed that in the middle of this, she takes a moment to stop her train of thought or the description of what she's doing, and she gives us I don't know if it's called a higher register, but maybe it's her higher register at this moment of something she notices for herself. And she says, My posture toward the world has changed. Instead of sitting pretty and hoping that others notice me, I've become someone who decides what she wants and goes after it. So I thought that was really cool. Then she continues on with the story right. Of finding a candidate.

Andrea Askowitz 00:22:35

Do you want to explain what a higher register is?

Pam Druckerman 00:22:37

No, go ahead.

Allison Langer 00:22:38

You do it better than I do.

Andrea Askowitz 00:22:39

So a higher register is when the narrator has earned the trust of the reader or the listener, and it usually happens at the end where the narrator can address us directly, sort of like what Pam Druckerman just did right there. My posture toward the world has changed. So she's telling us what she's learned and how she's changed, and we trust her because she's already taken us through everything that she's gone through. I like that she did it there, just right in the middle.

Allison Langer 00:23:06

Yeah, me, too. Usually the higher register is set to the whole world or to the listener, to like, okay, this is in more of a general sense, but in here, it's more of a specific to her her own growth she shares with us. Right.

Andrea Askowitz 00:23:23

Do you mean instead of saying, like, the world has changed?

Allison Langer 00:23:27

Because instead of saying people who are looking for a threesome and so she's the expert, right, for all threesomes, but she's really not doing that. She's really staying focused on herself, and she's saying, my posture toward the world has changed, so let me just set this up. So the paragraph four says, nevertheless, my new man's view of the world is thrilling. I notice women everywhere browsing in bookstores, in line, at the supermarket. I even scanned my book group, middle aged expatriate who like to read about the Holocaust for candidates. I know, she's talking hilarious, this woman. Oh, my God. My posture. And then she goes into how she has changed instead of waiting. So typically, an arc of a narrator is to towards the end, we see the change in the narrator, but here she's showing us right in the middle. The story is not over, but she.

Andrea Askowitz 00:24:19

Has changed, and she's noticing that she's changed. Super cool. Yeah, I love that. I love it.

Allison Langer 00:24:24

I'm going to try that in my next story. Like to just stop and just give the progress report. I have to feel like that's what this is.

Andrea Askowitz 00:24:31

Well, if there is a progress report.

Allison Langer 00:24:33

Yeah, but I do often think there is a progress report, and then you're kind of on a new path or like a different trajectory, and then you start moving in that until you get to the very end where your light changes forever. But in the middle, there's always a recognition like, oh, I thought this is different than I thought.

Andrea Askowitz 00:24:49

Yeah. And in this case, she's giving us the man's eye view. Very cool.

Allison Langer 00:24:55

Amazing. I loved it. I just loved her whole process. And then, oh, I wanted to also talk about so you guys can't see this, but when she's writing, she puts it in parentheses. So she says, as I'm getting ready to go meet her, parentheses, silk sweater, dress, foundation, mascara, and parentheses, I'm suddenly struck by the strangeness of what I'm about to do, try to convince a stranger to sleep with me and my husband. So sometimes the examples, if you're like, oh, you could go off on a tangent, and the reader, I think, or the listener gets a little bit distracted because now we're caught up in her appearance and whatnot. But for some reason, the parentheses just kind of tell us just enough so that we can move on. And I love that.

Andrea Askowitz 00:25:37

And there's another one, although when I read the email to my husband that night, he says, I'll swap you. It's like that one is sort of like and this is in addition, this is in my head, I just want to tell you this.

Allison Langer 00:25:49

She does that again, where she says at our second meeting, her insecurity surface. I guess this is what the woman said. Do I think this counts as cheating on her boyfriend? What kind of woman does my husband like?

Andrea Askowitz 00:26:04

Well done.

Allison Langer 00:26:06

So, yeah, it shows us a thought bubble in her head. It's so good the way she writes. Yeah, I can't wait to read her whole book.

Andrea Askowitz 00:26:14

Do read it and we will have her book. There are no grown ups in our show notes. For more, Pamela Druckerman and to buy her collection of essays called There Are No Grownups, go to Pamela Druckerman.com. Thank you for listening. And thank you, Pamela Druckerman, for sharing your story. Writing class. Radio is hosted by me, Andrea Askowitz.

Allison Langer 00:26:46

And me, Allison Langer.

Andrea Askowitz 00:26:48

Audio production by Matt Kundal, Evan Sarminski and Aidan Glassy at the Sound Off Media Company. The music is by Emmya. There's more writing class on our website, writingclassradio.com, including stories we study, editing resources, video classes, writing retreats and live online classes. Join our writing community by following us on Patreon. For $35 a month, you can join our first draft weekly writers group. You have the option to join Allison on Tuesdays, twelve to one Eastern, and Zarina Fry Wednesday, seven to 08:00 p.m.. Eastern. You'll write to a prompt and share what you wrote. Join the community that comes together for instruction and excuse to write and most importantly, the support from other writers. To learn more, go to patreon.com writingclassradio. You can always try the first one free. A new episode will drop every other Wednesday.

Allison Langer 00:27:51

There's no better way to understand ourselves and each other and by writing and sharing our stories. Everyone has a story. What's yours?